First project a flop. Must refinish.

magnaman · Post by **magnaman** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:03 am

I made a simple TV cabinet with raised panel doors for the DVD, etc. Used oak plywood and red oak lumber. Finish was 1. Minwax pre-stain 2. 3 coats Minwax oil based Golden Oak stain 3. Minwax polycrylic finish.

It looked great when it was completed but now it is blotchy with large patches of what looks like no stain at all. And the grain has raised and it needs to be resanded.

What went wrong?

pennview · Post by **pennview** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 am

The Minwax prestain comes in oil and water-based varieties, so if you used the water-based stuff under oil-based stain, perhaps that is your problem. In any event, prestain is for use with woods like pine, maple or cherry that have a tendency to get blotchy when stain is applied. You don't need a prestain on oak. I'd stick with all oil-based products or all water-based products when finishing to avoid compatibility problems.

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:06 pm

You do know what oak 'ray fleck' is.(?)

joedw00 · Post by **joedw00** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:41 pm

JPG40504 wrote:You do know what oak 'ray fleck' is.(?)

If he does, I don't, what is it?

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:47 pm

joedw00 wrote:If he does, I don't, what is it?

In addition to annual rings, oak also has ray cells that run generally pith to bark and are quite obvious in quarter sawn oak. They are not straight, so they sorta come and go across the rings.

If you are not expecting it, it will appear to be 'blemished'. Now oak enthusiasts consider it one of oaks desirable attributes(who wants plain old boring straight grain anyway?). The fleck gets real interesting when the rays are slightly angled to the surface and appear as small oblong 'blemishes' sorta like lacewood(imagination needed there!). If the surface of the wood piece is coincident with the ray, it will show over its entire length.

The rays can be more readily seen when viewed from the end grain.

kalynzoo · Post by **kalynzoo** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:57 pm

Minwax has a great website and used to offer chat help, don't know if they still do or not.
From my past mistake experiences, perhaps you left a residue of glue or oil on the ply during assembly. Even a seemingly invisible glue film pressed into the ply while it was sitting on the assembly surface will prevent the stain from being evenly absorbed.
A possible solution, certainly not the best solution but expedient, would be to let everything completely dry and cure, then lightly buff and try a gel-stain to darken and even the finish.
Again, finishing is certainly no by specialty, actually I stink at finishing, because I don't have the patients to do it right.

I am sure the experts on this forum will point you in the right direction.
But for me, I like gel-stains ability to cover mistakes, as long as your willing to accept a darker color.

holsgo · Post by **holsgo** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:34 pm

Here is a pic of the oak rays referred to above. I did a jewelry box and in this thread:
http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showthr ... ht=Weekend
You can see rays in finished and unfinished state.
Now, if that's not your issue then water polycrylic over oil isn't always best especially if the oil stain didn't have a long drying time. It can be done, just need over a full 24 hours for the stain to dry and even then it still may not be dry enough. Glue may be a problem for a blotchy look along areas where you clamped or glue lines. A trick I use is to never actually wipe the glue at all. I use just enough and leave any squeeze until it skins over and becomes yellow. Then I scrape it off and even hand plane it off.
To fix your problem you can sand off the polycrylic with 150 or higher. Work your way around the piece taking off the layer until it's a fine white powder. Once abraded you might find some luck with a stain removing excess in even strokes with a foam brush leaving a fine layer of stain to dry. Finish with oil poly sanding between coats. I normally do 3 coats and up to 5 if I'm going to polish it out. I'm not a pro but have had the same issue and fixed it nicely with a lot of patience.

berry · Post by **berry** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:29 pm

I don't want to sound contrary but I don't think you should think of this project as a flop. First, it didn't sound like a 'simple' project at all. Second, if you enjoyed the process that has real value. Third, if you learn from the experience that you are really moving ahead.

Finishing is tricky.

Post a pic.

cincinnati · Post by **cincinnati** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:42 pm

A photo of the project would help.

Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:36 am

How long did you allow the wood to dry between coats?
I will guess less that 24+ hours.
I would have allowed 2 to 3 days for the pre stain
When I stain with oil I allow as much time as possible at least 24 hours. I try for 2 days or more.
Also between coats of Poly you have to allow at least 24 hours. Again I try for 2 days
Your cabinet should have taken 5 to 7 days to finish.

All these products outgas and it effects how the next coat will look. You must allow time for the product to completely dry and finish out gassing before you put on another coat. If you don't the products will dry funny and you can get blotches, fogging, and what looks like missed spots. Outgassing is effected by temperature, humdity, sunlight and I believe ultraviolet light from florescent lights.

Put two coats of Poly on as soon as the second coat is dry to the touch and you find the coating will be finger nail dentable soft for a almost 2 weeks

And I agree it could also be flecking but without pictures it is hard to say.