Shopsmith, Are there shortcomings?

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pinkiewerewolf
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Post by pinkiewerewolf »

dusty wrote:Thank you dickg1 for the kind words but with that having been said, I'm going to try to redirect this discussion to:

SS Tilting Table, Does it Create Limitations?

Please, if anyone feels that the Shopsmith has other limitations (like the table on the 500 is just too darn small) or (the rip fence is not reliable - it needs to lock on the outfeed end) state so here.

What I hope we can do is discover that those negative opinions of the Shopsmith are all being dealt with by Shopsmith and that they no longer need be true.

The fact that there are so many 500s out there, still being used is in itself a tribute to the quality and versatility of the Shopsmith. The fact that you can still maintain and/or upgrade those old machines is a tribute to Shopsmith, Inc and the staff that makes this a reality.
Dusty, that is exactly why I ordered the 520 upgrade. I had to figit with the fence for an extended amount of time to make simple cuts. I would get the front to the measurement I needed and then the rear of the fence would move. In fairness, I did purchase my Mark V used (very) so this could be attributed to the maintenance, or lack of, prior to my purchase of the unit.
I am still in the belief that the Shopsmith Mark V and I will have a long and productive future together.
John, aka. Pinkie. 1-520, 1-510 & a Shorty, OPR. 520 upgrade, Band Saw, Jig Saw, scroll saw, Jointer, Jointech Saw Train.:) Delta Benchtop planer, Makita LS1016L 10" sliding compound miter saw, Trojan manf. (US Made)Miter saw work center, MiniMax MM16 bandsaw.
Squire of the Shopsmith. ...hmmmm, maybe knave, pawn, or wretch would be more appropriate for me.:D
Greenvilleguy
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Post by Greenvilleguy »

OK, I'll stop lurking on this one. I seem to be making a lot of bevel cuts on small boards these days for tambour roll tops and coopered bowls and birdhouses. The SS does just fine on this type of work.

I occasionally need to bevel the edge of some sheet goods and I tend to go a circular saw with a guide rather than wrestle with the weight.

I would summarize it this way. Are there some operations that are easier on a cabinet saw? Absolutely! However, the SS and a circular saw (with a good blade) is a very versatile combination.

The biggest drawback I see to the SS is that the height of the blade is controlled by raising and lowering the table. This restricts our ability to make a fixed height outfeed table to be used with it. I believe that is why we have all been so interested in the different outfeed options that have been presented on this forum.
Doug
Greenville, SC
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Ed in Tampa
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Post by Ed in Tampa »

I think what we are seeing and Shopsmith is dealing with is known as "going with the flow". If you read any wood working forum you wil quickly find EVERYONE loves Beismeyer fences, Cabinet table saws, and anything that weights 900 lbs and is in your workshop.

However they tend to ignore that there are superior fences to the Beismeyer out there, that some cabinet tables saws if built wrong and more importantly set up wrong are worst than a $88 ryobi saw. And while 900 lbs sounds good it is only until you have to move it.

Also 99% of everyone that inputs to most of the wood working forums are really more tool collectors than people that actually use the machines. Most have very little idea what a good wood working machine is. Most don't know what goes on under the table of their tablesaw or under the cover of any of their machines. Even fewer have the mechanical aptitude to even understand the variable speed mechanism on a Shopsmith much less be able to repair it.

They also all deny they watch Norm but everyone will tell you the only way to do something just happens to be the same way Norm does it. If Norm's saw was a Ryobi $88 saw with Norm singing the praises of it every week then the "industry standard" would be a Ryobi $88 saw.

I have found trying to reason with that mind set to be nearly impossible. Their solution to everything is do it like Norm does it, they just don't say it that way. Since Norm doesn't use a Shopsmith (not anymore) you will never convince them that a Shopsmith is a woodworking machine. When asked why, they all the parrot the same answer. You waste "SO" much time switching over, the table TILTS and it doesn't have 5 horse power.

Incidently I like Norm and I try to watch him and a few others when I can. Also I would love to have a shop like his, but since I don't make TV programs or earn a living from wood working I can not justify building a shop like that to display my prize trophies (machines) if I owned them.
Ed
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Post by paul heller »

Great post, Ed.
brown_hawk
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Post by brown_hawk »

Ed,

You are 100% correct. A $600 fence is worse than a straight edge and two clamps if the fence isn't set up parallel to the blade. Or if the blade is dull. Or whatever.

I like Norm and his work, but if you look at the two cabinets I've built using his plans, I've modified both to fit MY needs.

As for the "collectors", I'm always willing to buy their stuff for pennies on the dollar when they get tired of collecting.:D

Hawk
Dayton OH and loving it! :D (Except they closed the store.:( )
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john
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Post by john »

I know we ALL love our ShopSmiths but Doug hit the nail on the head in mentioning the raising and lowering of the table to achieve blade hight.

I am not fond of thinking I have thought of everything in adjusting the hight of the main table and setting up the auxilliary tables, and then realizing it is not quite as it should be so I have to disassemble everything and start all over.

Of course I don't do this nearly as often as I used to as experience does tend to teach us something. But then every one is a while I have a "seniors" moment and forget to follow the proper steps in setting up.

Funny, but the tilting table has not been a big issue with me and I use it often.

Just my $0.02. :D

Have fun!

John
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edflorence
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Post by edflorence »

Pardon me for chiming in late on this thread…I was away from the computer all weekend…which was OK, actually. Saturday afternoon I had a few hours in the shop and on Sunday I got to spend the day on the lake for an early season sail. Anyway, after my absence I checked in on the SS forum today and saw that the perennial favorite, “Tilting Table” had come out of hibernation, ready for the new season. And I see where someone suggested that this might be a good chance for lurkers to emerge…well, OK, be careful what you wish for! Here goes…

I love this tilting table topic, if for no other reason than its venerability. I recall being first introduced to it in 1958 when my dad brought home the first SS I had ever seen and his concerned friends cast skeptical eyes on the tilting table. I was only 12 at the time, didn’t have experience with any other power tools, and was willing to give the tilting table a fair try. Dad made it clear to me that the table saw mode was off limits to a kid, but I was given free rein to use the bandsaw, the drill press and the disk sander. And I can remember many times tilting the table and using the sanding disk to clean up rough angled cuts from the bandsaw. I quickly became a great fan of the tilting table as part of the sanding disk function.

When I finally did graduate to being allowed to use the saw, I did encounter some problems with the tilting table, having to do with cut-offs. Since Dad’s machine didn’t have saw guards, any cut-off left on the uphill side of the table after a cut was pretty likely to kick back. I couldn’t always figure out how to arrange a cut so the cut-off was on the downhill side, so some cuts could be a problem. I developed the opinion that, even though I loved it for the drill press and sanding disk, potential for kickback was a pretty big shortcoming to the tilting table.

In the years since those early days, I learned some about making safer cuts. I found that the upper saw guard and the anti-kickback pawls do a pretty good job of keeping most cut-offs from falling back onto the blade, if the tilt isn’t too steep, and the potential for kickback is reduced. Also, as the great old picture posted to this thread by “Eastern Gray” illustrates, cuts can be accomplished with the aid of a guide strip, thereby placing the cutoff on the downhill side of the tilted table. This is a great solution for many situations, although it does require care in affixing the guide strip. I have used this very idea to cut compound miters and it works quite well, although as I say, getting the guide strip “just so” is slow and fiddly. Also, it doesn’t work well for rip cuts. For long rip bevels I will sometimes turn to the jointer. On the other hand, if the bevel isn’t too steep, long rip cut-offs are the type of cut-off that the upper guard and the kick-back pawls are likely to be able to restrain effectively. Its kind of a judgment call which way to go, jointer or saw, depending on thickness of wood, bevel angle, width of cut-off etc, but I guess I would say the tilting table, when equipped with guards, presents less of a problem when ripping.

Fortunately, it is also pretty easy to work with the tilting table for most cross cuts. The post by “Sandy”, showing the angled jig riding on a flat table is a great illustration of the general nature of the work-arounds I have in mind. In fact, our very own R.J. DeCristoforo, of PTWFE fame, wrote a great book called “The Table Saw Book” which is filled with all sorts of jigs that work great on the tilting table and permit most any cut to be done in safety, with the table left flat. I checked Amazon this morning and they have a bunch of copies of this book, ranging in price from $3 to $15. In my opinion, its worth having…I suppose it could also be called “taming the tilting table.” In fact, I have read posts on other forums where users of tilting arbor saws say even they prefer to use such jigs whenever possible, since it is more convenient to use the jig and avoid having to re-set their saws to a perfect 90 after moving the blade.

As for the issue of the outfeed tables and the unisaw in the center of big island of table, well I can only speak from my own perspective, but personally I have not found that breaking down sheet goods with a circular saw and a straight edge to be a hardship. The left to right capacity of the Shopsmith table saw is virtually infinite, if you use roller stands, which only leaves the infeed/outfeed table issue. And yes, it might be nicer to have a bigger table, but SS has provided some nice ways to accomplish making the table wider front to back without compromising the machine’s primary mission which is “Multi-Function in Minimal Space.” For me, the bottom line is that the tilting table has to be considered in context of the entire “system” that is the Mark V. In that context, it works great.

It is interesting to recall that before the 1930’s; all power saws were tilting table saws. And there is no denying that great woodworking was done in the years before the ‘30’s! For an interesting history of the tilting arbor saw, including an ad from that era in which the new tilting arbor is compared to the tilting table (in which many of the same issues that we are still discussing are raised), check out this site:
http://www.woodworkinghistory.com/appendix_3.htm.

Back to lurk mode!
Ed
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Mark 5 of various vintages, Mini with reversing motor, bs, dc3300, jointer, increaser, decreaser
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dusty
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Post by dusty »

Thank you for coming out of hiding. Your comments are very interesting. I have made a copy to put in the shop notebook (something that I hope will be read with an eagerness by my grand daughter and maybe my grand son. He's sort of like me, he only reads when all else fails.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
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edflorence
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Post by edflorence »

dusty wrote: he only reads when all else fails.
Dusty...

I agree with your grandson in so far as there is no substitute for experience...but in the interest of keeping a full complement of fingers, I would encourage him to read enough to learn from the experiences of others as well!

I am pleased to hear I made it into your shop notebook. Thanks!
Ed
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woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

To answer a couple of posts placed earlier in this thread...
A bevel cut is when you "rip an angle along the length of a board", a miter cut is when you "crosscut an angle on the end of a board".
Sawdust & Shavings,
Woodburner:o
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