Heath's Woodworking Projects

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JPG
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Post by JPG »

shipwright wrote:Ok, I have to say it. This is woodworking ! You're not building a diesel engine here. If you can achieve accuracy to 1/16", a little sanding on the finished project will render excellent results. If you can efficiently achieve 1/32 accuracy you are doing very well indeed. The place you need accuracy is not in rough cuts on the saw but in the final fits between pieces and this comes from careful "fitting" piece to piece not from measurements. On a finished piece no one will ever notice, nor does it matter, that the table, drawer, or jewelry box is .001 or even 1/16th longer, wider, or thicker than some presumed "perfect size" as long as the fits are tight. I just don't understand all this obcession with dimensional accuracy where wood is involved. Maybe it comes from a need to follow plans accurately, I don't know. If that is the case, stop using plans and work from your imagination.

Sorry, my rant is now over. <<< You are sorry it is over?:D


Paul M

An excellent example of the difference between a Builder and a Craftsman!:cool:
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╟JPG ╢
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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heathicus
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Post by heathicus »

I will only add to this that my use of my (admittedly very cheap) caliper was for these purposes (in order of importance to me):

1) Verify the measurement reading on my planer and the fence adjustment on my table saw.

2) Verify consistency of the cuts.

3) Achieve accuracy with my cuts.

Yes, accuracy of the cuts measured in 1/128" was at the bottom of my list of reasons for using the caliper. I was more interested in the first two listed reasons. Although, really, I guess accurate measurement readings on equipment, and consistent equipment (and operator) leads to accurate cuts.

Although it pleases me that my 1/2" measurement was spot on, it doesn't bother me that my 1/4" measurement was 1/64th off (if I'm reading the vernier scale on the caliper correctly). I was pleased that I was that close, but I was even more pleased that all of the pieces I cut were consistent.

The caliper, much like the dial indicator, is really all about building my confidence through verification.
Heath
Central Louisiana
-10ER - SN 13927, Born 1949, Acquired October 2008, Restored November, 2008
-10ER - SN 35630, Born 1950, Acquired April 2009, Restored May 2009, A34 Jigsaw
-Mark V - SN 212052, Born 1986, Acquired Sept 2009, Restored March 2010, Bandsaw
-10ER - SN 39722, Born 1950, Acquired March 2011, awaiting restoration
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JPG
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Post by JPG »

heathicus wrote:I will only add to this that my use of my (admittedly very cheap) caliper was for these purposes (in order of importance to me):

1) Verify the measurement reading on my planer and the fence adjustment on my table saw.

2) Verify consistency of the cuts.

3) Achieve accuracy with my cuts.

Yes, accuracy of the cuts measured in 1/128" was at the bottom of my list of reasons for using the caliper. I was more interested in the first two listed reasons. Although, really, I guess accurate measurement readings on equipment, and consistent equipment (and operator) leads to accurate cuts.

Although it pleases me that my 1/2" measurement was spot on, it doesn't bother me that my 1/4" measurement was 1/64th off (if I'm reading the vernier scale on the caliper correctly). I was pleased that I was that close, but I was even more pleased that all of the pieces I cut were consistent.

The caliper, much like the dial indicator, is really all about building my confidence through verification.

All previous posts aside, I consider your 'composite' vernier fractional calipers quite satisfactory for the task at hand!!!!!:):cool:
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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Post by efmaron »

Paul (shipwright) I agree with you 100%
Eric, Sebring Fl.
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Post by dusty »

I was all prepared to jump in here but I decided to NOT do that. I have been on my soap box regarding precision alignment too many times.

Let it suffice to say that if you need it (your Shopsmith) to function with accuracy to within 1/64", your Shopsmith is definitely up to the task and can do better than that if the user is up to the task.

If you have to move your Mark V around a lot, long term repeatability might become something of an issue.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
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Post by shipwright »

JPG40504 wrote:An excellent example of the difference between a Builder and a Craftsman!:cool:
Not sure if that was a compliment or an insult, not that I mind. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion. Both "builders" and "craftsmen" come in good and bad, the difference is in the product, not in the method of achieving it.
IMOH

Paul M
Paul M ........ The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese
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shipwright
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Post by shipwright »

Heath and Dusty

I wasn't refering to machine setup, but rather woodworking. Sorry for any confusion. I agree that the SS is a very accurate machine and can be set up much more accurately than is normally necessary in the preliminary stages (sawing, planing, etc) of a project involving wood.

Paul M
Paul M ........ The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese
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heathicus
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Post by heathicus »

Paul, there wasn't any confusion on my part. And I totally agree with you. :D
Heath
Central Louisiana
-10ER - SN 13927, Born 1949, Acquired October 2008, Restored November, 2008
-10ER - SN 35630, Born 1950, Acquired April 2009, Restored May 2009, A34 Jigsaw
-Mark V - SN 212052, Born 1986, Acquired Sept 2009, Restored March 2010, Bandsaw
-10ER - SN 39722, Born 1950, Acquired March 2011, awaiting restoration
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dusty
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Post by dusty »

I'm unsure of what the pending debate is going to be but somehow I feel that I shall be in the middle of it. Paul, Heath...I too agree and I did not mean to stir up previous debates. Peace.:)
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
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pennview
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Post by pennview »

Ok, I have to say it. This is woodworking ! You're not building a diesel engine here. If you can achieve accuracy to 1/16", a little sanding on the finished project will render excellent results. If you can efficiently achieve 1/32 accuracy you are doing very well indeed. The place you need accuracy is not in rough cuts on the saw but in the final fits between pieces and this comes from careful "fitting" piece to piece not from measurements. On a finished piece no one will ever notice, nor does it matter, that the table, drawer, or jewelry box is .001 or even 1/16th longer, wider, or thicker than some presumed "perfect size" as long as the fits are tight. I just don't understand all this obcession with dimensional accuracy where wood is involved. Maybe it comes from a need to follow plans accurately, I don't know. If that is the case, stop using plans and work from your imagination.

Sorry, my rant is now over.

Paul M
__________________
Perhaps we're looking at this similarly but drawing different conclusions. For me, calipers, either vernier, digital, or dial, as well as dial indicators, etc., are tools like any other in the wood shop. They come out when needed and not to satisfy some obsession with dimensional accuracy, but rather to easily achieve the accuracy that certain tasks require.

You're right about who cares that a jewelry box is longer or wider than some perfect size, but that's not what I'd use a caliper for. I've made many boxes where the size with based on what I was using for the lid. I use calipers when some critical measurement is necessary, like the thickness of a tenon in a mortise and tenon joint, or the spacing of dowels, etc.

Currently, inspired by your mobile cart for Special Purpose Tools (SPTs), I'm building one of my own to house a jointer, bandsaw, belt sander, and strip sander, together with some other Shopsmith-related bits and pieces. I used a vernier caliper to verify the spread of mounting tubes at 7 inches and their diameter (about 1 1/4"), and used a compass to lay out the spacing for drilling those 1 1/4" holes in the blocks that will receive and hold the SPTs. It's so simple, measure the outside spacing of the two tubes, subtract the diameter of one of the tubes and you have the center-to-center spacing (about 8 1/4" - 1 1/4" = 7"). And there's no guessing.

In making the drawers boxes, I'm using a dado in the drawer sides and rabbet in the front and back, adding a separate front later. The dados, which were cut first, were made with two passes of the saw blade to something in the neighborhood of 1/4" wide by 5/16" deep. No real accuracy in measurements here is required. The rabbet, also cut on the table saw, then requires the precision necessary to create a tight joint and here is where a caliper comes in handy to adjust the saw fence and blade height. Make the test cuts, measure with the calipers, adjust the fence and blade with a dial indicator and your done -- usually a perfect fit. There are other ways to do this for sure, but I'm comfortable going this way.

In making the carcass for the drawers, the saw fence accurately sizes the various parts. Alternatively, I use a miter gauge, with fence and stop blocks, to cut identically sized parts. There's no need to sand anything to size.

Today, at Harbor Freight, you can buy a 6 inch stainless steel digital caliper for 9.99, a dial indicator for 11.99 and a magnetic base for another 9.99, and simplify a lot of set-ups or measurements, in my view. You can achieve the same without these items, but some will find them useful, and not necessarily because of some obsession with accuracy.
Art in Western Pennsylvania
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