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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:58 pm
by pennview
I'm one of those guys that doesn't use a splitter or guard, although I have used hold downs on occasion. It seems the splitter and guard just get in the way unless you're ripping fairly wide stock. Then again, I don't try to rip stock that is warped or twisted.
I don't see much use for hold downs when crosscutting -- it seems they'd just cause the kind of trouble you're trying to avoid, trapping the board next to a spinning blade. Likewise, I see trouble from a hold down on the left side of the blade when ripping with the fence on the right side of the blade. It's the wood between the blade and the fence that causes the problem, and I don't think a plastic hold down is going to win any arguments should a jam occur.
I have had a board hit me in the gut, but that resulted from me dropping a 4" x 18" piece of wood onto a spinning blade after trying to retrieve it following a ripping cut. I didn't have control of the wood and it slipped out of my hand, it bounced behind the saw blade, then on top of the saw blade, and then forcefully into my gut. I had a nice imprint of the end of the board in my gut for a few days. I try to remain more focused since then when ripping. I was using a contractor's style saw, not the Shopsmith when it happened.
I have also had the kerf start to close while ripping (mostly 2 x 4s) and I'd guess they would have kicked back had I lost control of the stock before shutting off the saw. A splitter clearly would help prevent binding of the stock against the blade.
In any event, I wouldn't tell anyone not to use the saw guard if they asked me for advice.
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:36 pm
by kalynzoo
Having known two master craftsmen, each with a missing diget, my respect for the tablesaw is overwhelming. I try to always use the SS blade guard, and I also use the featherboards, both whenever possible. However, sometimes one or both are just not practical.
One problem I have noted is that the blade guard does not always line up with the blade causing the wood to catch on the guard as I am pushing the wood through. Any Suggestions would be welcome.
I do not have a splitter other than the SS blade guard.
As for using the featherboards on a non-through cut, I set up a stopblock and turn off the saw. I don't know if that is the best procedure, but it seems to work.
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:46 pm
by joedw00
dusty wrote:If you are interested in parting with it, send me a PM.
BUT, if you don't use it, please consider trying this first. Remove the plastic blade guard completely. It is easy to remove and just as easy to put back. With it removed, you are left with a riving knife equipped with kick back pawls.
I will try removing the blade guard, and see how that goes. Thanks for the tip.
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:42 pm
by easterngray
Another thing that I believe gets folks in trouble is this mentality that hand tools are to be avoided at all cost. I see huge elaborate efforts made so that a tiny cut that could be cut in 60 seconds with a good hand tool can be cut with all kinds of effort on a table saw after a 20 minute setup and $30 of jig building.
Amen to that. I am astonished at the number of guys I know that have woodshops that are equipped with an enormous amount of expensive and accurate power tools and not a single sharp hand saw.
I use this saw at work all the time. Sharp as the Dickens, thin kerf, handy, cheap and fast. Pretty safe too. It'll cut you, but you'd have to be in a state of insanity to lose a finger with it. Alec
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:00 pm
by shipwright
I'm in full agreement with Francis, but then it seems I usually am. I'll add my 40 years of tablesawing with no kickbacks to his total. Kickbacks are caused by not being in control of your material, primarily the bit passing the up-moving side of the blade. I find that upper guards interfere with my ability to see my cut and to control the piece so for every tablesaw I've owned, there exists a corresponding as new never even installed upper guard. (My SS is used but the first thing I did was remove it). I use my hand most often to hold the material down tight as it passes the blade, but when the blade - fence distance is less than about 2" or so I swich to a shoe which, as I've said in another thread, allows this critical downward control of the whole piece, not just the back end as with a push stick. In fact I think push sticks can cause kickbacks. I have no problem putting my hands near the blade but I always know my material (tension etc.), keep two or three fingers firmly hooked over the fence,and have an "escape plan" if things start to go sideways (figuratively).
http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showpos ... stcount=83
http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showpos ... stcount=85
My methods are not for everyone and I applaud anyone who strives to work safely, but the bottom line is that safety starts with control of your workpiece, however you control it.
Paul M
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:47 am
by a1gutterman
The only time that I have experienced "kickback" is when I did knot pay enough attention. I do, ever after, pay very good attention to what I am doing when at the table saw. I am one of those that do knot use a guard, splitter or pawls. I do like to use featherboards, safety glasses and hearing protection, and do knot allow others in close proximity when using the saw. I did knot answer the poll: I believe that the operators attention to the task is what "greatly reduces the likelyhood of kickback".
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:55 am
by shipwright
I agree Tim, and I didn't vote either because while I think for some people the stated practices may reduce kickbacks, IMHO they are unnecessary if the operator is focused and on the ball.
Paul M
Grripper
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:10 am
by riot_nrrd
I have not had much experience with kickback. On the SS, the few times I got close to kickback, the motor overloaded and tripped the breaker. I guess that's a kind of a safety feature?
I also tend to get frustrated with the blade guard, so rarely use it. I have thought about removing the guard and just using the riving knife/splitter, but have not yet done so.
What I _have_ done is buy a couple of these Grripper push blocks (or whatever they are called), and I have been very pleased with them. I bought the "super-duper cool at the woodworking show if you buy today" package, and it allows for some really nice control. You can give downward pressure on either side of the cut, and use the various plates and adjustments to give you lateral pressure against the fence. It is a bit more setup, but in general I've been very pleased. They don't always offer as much "push" as I like (which probably means I need to wax my table), but I can usually overcome that by using two at a time, or using the hook on the base plate, or just pushing with my hand (depending on the size of the workpiece).
Has anyone used those one-way rollers that you can mount to the top of your rip fence? It seems like those would work well, and avoid damaging the workpiece like pawls can do if they engage.
RiotNrrd
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:06 pm
by Ed in Tampa
easterngray wrote:Amen to that. I am astonished at the number of guys I know that have woodshops that are equipped with an enormous amount of expensive and accurate power tools and not a single sharp hand saw.
I use this saw at work all the time. Sharp as the Dickens, thin kerf, handy, cheap and fast. Pretty safe too. It'll cut you, but you'd have to be in a state of insanity to lose a finger with it. Alec
Alec
Actually you don't I nearly lost a finger to one. Mine like yours was ultra sharp, so sharp it had a plastic blade guard that slide on the blade for storage. One day I was putting the blade guard on and some pitch from the wood I had been cutting stopped it from slidding on. Of course being a normal guy instead of cleaning the pitch off I merely pushed harder. The pitch kind of rolled into a ball and the plastic guard instantly slipped. Of course my hand postion was all wrong and I ended up dragging a finger down the blade. Worst cut of my life.
So in effect I was injuried with a hand saw putting on the protective sleeve. In fact I was injuried because I hadn't thought through the process I was engaged in.
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:21 pm
by Ed in Tampa
robinson46176 wrote:I believe that almost all kickbacks are the direct result of the operator not being in charge of the board being cut... In all of my about 50 years of sawing on a table saw (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot) I have just never had a problem with kickback. I almost never use a guard and only occasionally a splitter. I think that some of my lack of a problem is due to inherited traits from my 7th great uncle, King Kong. So far when I grab hold of a board to cut it, I have a hold on the board. I am very heavy and very strong. That may come back to bite me as I grow older and lose strength.
I really like the feather board mounted to the fence and a second one behind the blade would be fine but I see no reason to have one on the opposite side of the blade from the fence on what I would normally consider the waste piece. It can not bind between a fence and the blade and there is no reason it should ever kick back. I see no problem from it being there though. I do often use a feather board on the table to hold a board over against the fence but only in front of the blade of course. You never want to be pushing the board over behind the blade as that might pinch it against the blade.
I am constantly amazed at how many cuts I see being made (mostly on TV) where the board has lifted a quarter to a half inch off of the table at the back. A second feather board would help that a lot. A set of "Board Buddies" could also help there.
I would not mind adding one of those splitters to my main table saw (not a SS) that are plastic and slip in and out just behind the blade.
Another thing that I believe gets folks in trouble is this mentality that hand tools are to be avoided at all cost. I see huge elaborate efforts made so that a tiny cut that could be cut in 60 seconds with a good hand tool can be cut with all kinds of effort on a table saw after a 20 minute setup and $30 of jig building. Now if you are making 20 such cuts that is another matter. The point is if a piece is so small that you cannot get hold of it well it becomes a likely kickback risk.
The main thing that everybody should do is keep looking at and thinking about what you are doing with a fresh look all of the time and especially so when safety is involved which is exactly what Dusty is doing right now. Sometimes we become too comfortable with our bad habits.
Farmer
I will disagree on one issue you brought up. Strength and controlling the wood. I don't believe there is anyone on earth strong enough to control a board that gets caught just right by the blade. I have had a board ripped out of my hands, tossed 20 foot and penetrated a dry wall wall. The board was approximately 6 feet long, 2 feet wide of 3/4 oak. When it got ripped from my hands and sailed past my head I was so very thankful my old shop teacher had also taught me tablesaw sawing position. I was out of the line of fire.
I don't know exactly what happened but I do know I didn't have the sawguard on (last time without at least a splitter). I know the wood had grown under tension (side of a mountain trunk was actually bent). The grain pattern wasn't the normal oak pattern but had interesting twist and turns. Both my hands were injuried not by the saw or being hit by the wood but by the extreme pressure that was generated I tried to hold onto the wood. I got a totally new respect for the "under" powered SS.
I do very much agree with your final comment that our thinking is we must do it with a stationary power tool when a hand or small portable power tool would have worked better simpler and easier.
In high school shop our first two years was hand tools only. We took raw, rough wood and hand planed, shaped, cut, drilled, sanded and finished all by hand. At one time I could take a 2 foot 8 inch rough cut board and hand plane it to 3/4 perfectly flat and both sides parallel almost as fast as someone could get a power plane out, set up dust collection, adjust the depth of cut and power plane it. However I have slowed down a bit, but I still loved the sound and feel of a really sharp hand plane taking a pass on wood.