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All bent out of shape: seeking square advice

reubenjames

I installed my aluminum bandsaw table last night. Tonight, I tried to go out and align it per the manual. It got stupid cold in there, though, and eventually my hands grew tired (numb) of gripping ice cold metal and I gave up. Before that happened, however, I decided something: I hate my squares and I don't trust them.

That's not completely true--I love and trust my 3-inch machinists square. And my speed square IS square, but it's edges aren't sharp enough, particularly the 90 degree corner, which is rather rounded. My steel square is junk, and it's been retired permanently. Both my combination squares are out at the farm, so I can't malign them today.

Needless to say, squaring a bandsaw table with a 3-inch machinists square doesn't work. Anybody have a favorite square or two they'd like to plug? Preference would be on a good combination square or speed square, or a larger machinists square, which I quite like. I'll entertain all suggestions, but somewhere in between bargain basement and you-spent-what-on-a-Starrett? is where I'll probably land.

dusty

I use an old Stanley Aluminum Square. I've had it for as long as I can remember.

thunderbirdbat

There is a way to adjust a carpenter's square that I was shown years ago. Place a straight edge down, lay the tongue against the straight edge and draw a line along the blade. Flip the square over along the straight edge (like turning a page in a book) and draw another line along the blade. Based on which way the square has sprung place a dimple in the inside or outside of the heel with a center punch until the lines match. It does not take a lot to make a difference. I learned this method from an old carpenter about 40 years ago. He said he always checked a new square and at the start of each day, after lunch and if it was dropped to ensure that it did not get out of alignment. I watched him put up a small storage shed complete with stairs, roof rafters, hip rafters and a gable all with just the square and a tape measure to figure out his angles and lengths. Hope this helps.

reubenjames

Thanks, Brenda. I'm bad without seeing things, but I found this video, which looks like the technique you are talking about:

I have to admit, doesn't seem like the center punch would really make a difference, but now I have to try it to see!

thunderbirdbat

Yes that is similar to what I was taught. The way it was explained to me was that the punch causes the metal to react in a way similar to adjusting a handscrew clamp is adjusted for an even pressure. Considering I was about 10 at the time, it is probably about as much as I could understand.

BuckeyeDennis

I got a bunch of vintage Starrett instruments in a goody box that came with my 10ER. There was light to moderate surface rust on most of them. I'm much too cheap to pay for new ones, but after a cleaning with Evaporust and polishing with a Nyalox brush, they worked as good as new, and looked pretty nice as well.

Included were a 4" combination square, and a bubble protractor and a center-finder. But the 12" combo square was MIA. So I watched eBay for a week or two, and then bought a matching, but slightly rusty, combo square for about $20. It cleaned up pretty nicely as well. It's easy to tune them to be perfectly square. And they are so repeatable that I almost never pull out my machinist squares anymore. The operation is silky smooth, and the straightness of the scales is better than I can measure -- i.e. better than 0.001". So now I'm spoiled rotten.

Check the selling prices on eBay, and you'll see that used Starret squares are going at pretty reasonable prices. That link shows only the ones that actually sold.

JPG

I am amazed!

Using an awl as a center punch.

Not the tool I would use on metal.

masonsailor2

I recently decided to buy a new combo square. I decided to take my Wixie digital protractor with me to test them. I went to our local hardwood and tool supplier and proceeded to test them. The only one that was right on with every square we tested was the Starretts. We tested three and they were dead on. All the other less expensive ones were hit and miss. Now here is the irony. I decided to go by HF on the way home and test a few of the " junk ones" they sell and to my suprise the majority of them were also dead on. I bought two of them, one 12" and one 18" just to see how long they stayed true. This is now a year later and they both have remained true. The only drawback on the cheap ones is the locking mechanism which is not even close to the quality of a Starrett or Stanley. I did compare the HF ones against a Starrett rule I have for linear accuracy and found no difference. The one difference that I can only speculate on would be a drop test. The cheap aluminum ones I doubt would survive as well as a solid steel one as far as squareness is concerned. I highly recommend picking up a digital protractor. I use mine a lot and love it.

Paul

reubenjames

masonsailor2 wrote
I highly recommend picking up a digital protractor. I use mine a lot and love it.

dusty

masonsailor2 wroteI recently decided to buy a new combo square. I decided to take my Wixie digital protractor with me to test them. I went to our local hardwood and tool supplier and proceeded to test them. The only one that was right on with every square we tested was the Starretts. We tested three and they were dead on. All the other less expensive ones were hit and miss. Now here is the irony. I decided to go by HF on the way home and test a few of the " junk ones" they sell and to my suprise the majority of them were also dead on. I bought two of them, one 12" and one 18" just to see how long they stayed true. This is now a year later and they both have remained true. The only drawback on the cheap ones is the locking mechanism which is not even close to the quality of a Starrett or Stanley. I did compare the HF ones against a Starrett rule I have for linear accuracy and found no difference. The one difference that I can only speculate on would be a drop test. The cheap aluminum ones I doubt would survive as well as a solid steel one as far as squareness is concerned. I highly recommend picking up a digital protractor. I use mine a lot and love it.

Paul

Which Wixey device do you use for this sort of test?

When using your Wixey as the test tool, what do you consider to be "right on"?

reubenjames

And do I need to calibrate the digital protractor with a square I trust so I can trust the squares I'm checking with a digital protractor? This seems a little chicken and egg...

JPG

dusty wrote
masonsailor2 wroteI recently decided to buy a new combo square. I decided to take my Wixie digital protractor with me to test them. I went to our local hardwood and tool supplier and proceeded to test them. The only one that was right on with every square we tested was the Starretts. We tested three and they were dead on. All the other less expensive ones were hit and miss. Now here is the irony. I decided to go by HF on the way home and test a few of the " junk ones" they sell and to my suprise the majority of them were also dead on. I bought two of them, one 12" and one 18" just to see how long they stayed true. This is now a year later and they both have remained true. The only drawback on the cheap ones is the locking mechanism which is not even close to the quality of a Starrett or Stanley. I did compare the HF ones against a Starrett rule I have for linear accuracy and found no difference. The one difference that I can only speculate on would be a drop test. The cheap aluminum ones I doubt would survive as well as a solid steel one as far as squareness is concerned. I highly recommend picking up a digital protractor. I use mine a lot and love it.

Paul
Which Wixey device do you use for this sort of test?

When using your Wixey as the test tool, what do you consider to be "right on"?

And the 'test procedure' if you please.

masonsailor2

The digital protractor is accurate to 0.1 degree. I considered right on to be 90.0 degrees.

masonsailor2

The test procedure was to put the protractor on them and measure the angle. Easy to do with the all steel ones because the Wixie is magnetic.

masonsailor2

And by all means one needs to check the digital protractor for accuracy. I have checked mine several times and it is dead on. I just put it on the jointer table and press the calibrate button before I check it. It's magnetic so both ends stick to the table which makes it easy to zero.

masonsailor2

Just took a picture.

dusty

masonsailor2 wroteAnd by all means one needs to check the digital protractor for accuracy. I have checked mine several times and it is dead on. I just put it on the jointer table and press the calibrate button before I check it. It's magnetic so both ends stick to the table which makes it easy to zero.

I gotta do some research and maybe even order a digital protractor.

My Wixey Digital Angle Gauge and my iGaging Angle Cube are seldom right on. I can zero either of them and to a certain extent move them around and get similar readings but never right on.

The Angle Cube seems to be more reliable but I bought the Wixey first and got used to using it and it seems to be my go to device. The Angle Cube and the Wixey, when user side by side are definitely not of equal quality.

reible

I think we might be over thinking this need for setting up the bandsaw..... They need to be close but that is about it. If you are spending more then 15 minutes on squareness it is too much.

The best way to make sure the cut is at 90 degrees to the table is to take a 4" x 4" block of wood and make a shallow kerf then turn off the saw and take the block to the back of the blade and match the kerf to the back of the blade.... if they match you are all set, if they don't you aren't square enough.

The only other squareness you have to think about is to the miter gauge and that is pretty much a guessing game due to the blade involved. In that case a smaller metal machines square is what I use, I think it is a 5" or 6" and it would have to be way off to make much of difference.

BTW here is another tip for you:

http://www.shopsmith.com/ss_forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14553&p=167319&hilit=bandsaw+trick#p167319

Bandsaws are fun but I would never want to have to dial it in to fractions of a degree, its not going to work any better, it is what it is.

Ed

reubenjames

reible wroteI think we might be over thinking this need for setting up the bandsaw...

Thanks, Ed. You are correct, it *is* over-thinking for a bandsaw. The bandsaw issue merely highlighted a deeper concern, which is my alignment tools in general. If you read my other thread on saw blades, there are concerns over my SS alignment, which is what is next on my list. I want to make sure I'm getting reasonably close when I align the table saw, etc. to see if that reduces the issues I am having.

reible

Shopsmith sells a dial indicator and for a while they were all the rage here. I even got one to keep up with the other folks. I personally didn't find it helpful for the alignment but it is nice to check how well you did after you are done.

http://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/catalog/mvlt_dialindicator.htm

The key is to align the table to the "blade" I use a master plate but a blade will do. You need to mark a tooth on the blade so you align to the same point on the blade on the in feed and out feed side of the blade. A miter gauge with the extension rod or a allen wrench clamped to it works really well. I shoot for with in .005" and most time I do better then that when I come back to to the check with the dial indicator. This is well with in the use able range of any blade you have in mind.

Once the miter slots are aligned then you can do the rip fence. I tend to like to use my rip fence to the right so I align to neutral or with the back of the rip fence slightly farther to the right so the wood will not bind. Again you can get with in a few thousands using the miter gauge and rod but if you want to check the dial indicator works for that as well.

Dusty is are resident dot all the "I's" and cross all the "t's" guy on alignment so look for some of his posts on the subject.

I'm sort of old school on the subject but it has work since 1976 when I first got my shopsmith.

Ed

reubenjames wrote
reible wroteI think we might be over thinking this need for setting up the bandsaw...
Thanks, Ed. You are correct, it *is* over-thinking for a bandsaw. The bandsaw issue merely highlighted a deeper concern, which is my alignment tools in general. If you read my other thread on saw blades, there are concerns over my SS alignment, which is what is next on my list. I want to make sure I'm getting reasonably close when I align the table saw, etc. to see if that reduces the issues I am having.