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Is there more interest in Kreg pocket hole stuff?

reible

I have a nice collection of the screws, jigs and clamps and would be willing to do a few posts for those that might be interested. Most of this would be at a 101 level for beginners and is already "out there" somewhere but here it you would be able to ask questions and see detailed photos.

Let me know if there is interest and I'll see what I can come up with.

There will be no testing of joint types as I'm not a fan of what has been done out there as it is pretty much meaning less. We might discuss that however.

Ed

JPG

Not much apparently!

As a total newbie to kreg etc. I would benefit from such effort, but that is hardly justification for the effort . :)

BuckeyeDennis

I may or may not learn anything new about the jigs and clamps. I have an early/basic Kreg drill guide that that works fine for my limited purposes. But I’d definitely be very interested in your thoughts on joint testing.

reible

Not much interest now how ever thing might get more interesting after we get started, let's give it a try.

I'd like to start by looking at the screws involved. They come in difference lengths, not unlike other screws. They come with different head types, difference finishes and yes different thread types. They even have a larger stronger version of these. And one of the advantages is that this is a system so one needs to get the right screws for the job but they make that pretty easy to do. If you chose to wing it well who knows what you will end up with.

Kreg provides the information you need. You are much better off if you follow that information.

Looking first at finishes, the most expensive option is stainless steel, and if you need the corrosion resistance then it is the way to go. Next is something the call Blue-Kote™, good for damp/wet location or if you are working with treated wood. Zinc is the more common one for working on dry indoor projects and also is the cheapest. I personally have used the zinc and blue-kote but never the ss.

Guess which one is which:

[attachment=2]$matches[2][/attachment]

Next up is the thread selection. Fine-Thread is used for hard dense woods, higher thread count and less likely to split the wood. Coarse-Thread screws are for soft woods and plywood/MDF.

Since you did so well on the last picture see how you do on this one:

There are two head types, Pan-Head and Maxi-Loc. The later is the most common one used with the large head. The pan-head is sometimes used with hard dense wood and when joining 1/2" materials. The shank is also finer which brings other advantages in certain situations such as they are less likely to split the wood and can be places closer together and in tighter locations.

Head types are just as easy as the other two:

Lastly we need to talk about lengths of screws. This varies with the screw types. SS screws come in 1-1/4" both fine and course threads, the 1-1/2" and 2-1/2" are course only. I have no reason to spout other types because that information resides places. What I did want to point out is that length matters and you really need some help to get you going on this. On my next post we will get more into this.

Ed in Tampa

I am in the class so keep going!

Gene Howe

Ed in Tampa wroteI am in the class so keep going!

Ditto.

dusty

I'll read everything you post.

Incidently, I use Kreg screws for many tasks not related to pocket holes. I like the head for jobs where it will be visible,

reible

The length of the screw is important because if it is too long it might have the point come through and wreck your project or too short it might not have enough grip and could fail. That is the obvious bits.

A secondary thing to think about is the how the screw is made to work. Note that the screw only has threads part way up the shank.

[attachment=2]$matches[2][/attachment]

The top portion has no threads, because this is how the screw pulls the mating parts together. The threaded portion is in the mating part and the un-threaded is in the pocket hole part. If the screw length is wrong then it will also likely not work the way it should. By either having threaded screw bits in the pocket hole portion thus not let the joint pull together or clearance in the mating part reducing holding power.

If this confuses you at first don't worry as we go on this will come up again.

The typical wood thickness for pocket holes are in the lower range of 1/2" and work up to 1-1/2". So as you might guess there are a few different screw lengths that are also common. The most common I feel are the 1", 1-1/4", 1-1/2", 2" and 2-1/2". I did get some .75" ones for a project but that would be an outlier.

So why the various lengths? The idea behind the pocket hole is that the pocket hole jig puts the pocket hole in the the work piece with the exit hole being in the middle of the thickness of the work piece. The jig is a fixed (I believe) 15 degrees so to accomplish this for different thickness of materials the jig has to be placed at different locations from the joint. As this point moves so changes the length of screw needed.

There are two basic joints that you make, one they call a face joint the other an edge joint. A face joint is where the materials are on the same plane and the edge is when they are not, most commonly they are at 90 degrees to each other.

[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]

Before we get to far on this keep in mind that the thickness is the actual thickness not the nominal one. As an example a 1 x 4 the thickness is 3/4" so that is what you use not the 1".

Looking at the face joint (left one) and assuming the thickness is 3/4" for both pieces you would use a 1-1/4" screw. If the two parts were say 1/2" thick then the screw length would be 1". If they were 1-1/2" thick then the screw length would be 2-1/2". Kreg provides tables for this but I got this screw selector wheel seen below.

What ever works for you is fine but you do need to do more then guess.

The side that the pocket holes are on is the hidden side if possible. The opposite side is the good face. You of course want to keep that face nice so besides the screw length you also have to set the depth stop on the drill bit and the jig based on material thickness. So we will leave the screw lengths for a while and look at the basics of those settings in my next post.

reible

The kreg jig requires a special bit to make the pockets. It is basically a stepped bit that looks like this:

[attachment=6]$matches[2][/attachment]

When we talk about setting the collar depth stop it is from the collar to the step of the bit as shown with the green measurement. The point is not in the measurement.

In this picture note how the pilot part of the bit corresponds to the screws un-threaded portion.

[attachment=5]$matches[2][/attachment]

As an aide in setting the depth kreg has various helpers. On this jig they have a depth gauge built in. Not really easy to see in the photo but not so bad on the tool.

[attachment=4]$matches[2][/attachment]

This is only an example so what you have many or many not look like this.

To set the depth you first need to know the actual thickness of the material. Then you loosen the collar and put the bit in the jig, set the depth and tighten the collar. Here is the bit set for 3/4" material:

[attachment=3]$matches[2][/attachment]

A little heads up, 3/4" plywood is less then 3/4" so you can fudge the collar placement towards a lower number, but don't get too carried away and doing a test before hand is a good idea before jumping in and doing damage because you were a bit too far off.

This brings us to the the main part of the jig. There are metal guide bushings to guide the bit and keep in on course. Again kreg makes a few of these so this is just one example. In this picture you can see the portion of the jig that is against the material when drilling.

[attachment=2]$matches[2][/attachment]

This is what the bit looks like when set to 3/4" material and inserted in the jig all the way. Also note the markings on the side of the jig.

[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]

Those numbers are used to locate the jig into the mounting system as seen here:

At this point we have our bit and jig set to drill pocket holes in 3/4" material.

There have been quite a number of different jigs along the way and what I have been showing is the K4. I have the K3 and a couple of older ones including the very first one I got many many years ago. They have now progressed to several newer models which I have had no exposure to.

Next we will talk a bit about some simple joints and other topics.

reible

In the drawing below which piece should the pocket holes be drilled in? This is a pretty typical joint and we can assume it is ordinary wood so typical wood working techniques would apply.

[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]

Have you locked in your answers?

If you said "A" then you are correct. You really don't want to put screws into end grain so the better choice is to have the pockets put in and have the nice large head to be on the end grain.

Now a big question is how many pockets should you put in? Well again that depends but there are rules of thumb for this. And if you happen to have the jig I do then we can get some information from that.

As you can see there are 3 holes, and they are labeled A,B, and C. The spacing of the holes then relates to the spacing that is best for the pocket holes depending on how wide part "A" is. This type of joint pretty much needs two pockets minimum. If the part were 1" to 2" wide then you use the hole pair of B and C. If the part were 2" to 3" then the pair A and B is best. If the part is 3" to 4" then the A and C is used. These are not set in stone and you might find a reason to cheat a little.....

Now while we are at it there are times where you might be attaching a panel where there are longer lengths involved. In that case start in 2" on both ends and then space the pockets every 6". You can use any of the holes for this.

If you happen to have one of the jigs without the hole pattern this might help. I just have a cheap plastic rule here with me so these dimensions are close but not likely right on, but should be close enough to use. The A-B hole are 7/8", the A-C is 1-3/8" and the B-C is 9/16". I'm sure kreg has this spelled out some where so you could see if you can find it if it importation to you.

Another question is about glue. I think the answer is that you get a better joint with the addition of glue but you don't have to glue......... I think half or so of the joints I don't use glue.

Another thing that seems to come up is how tight to try and pull the joint. It is quite easy to over tighten, and that is not far from either stripping the threads or driving too deep and having the screw come through the part. I think a good snug fit is the best you can do. If you are using a modern battery powered drill then set the ring to a lower setting then test with a screw driver, if you can easily get a couple more turns then reset the drill and try again. Once the screwdriver doesn't let you tighten more then stop. And yes softer woods are easier to mess up with over tightening.

I think next we will talk about clamping. So stay tuned, and if have questions or comments let me know.

reible

Clamping is one thing that you have to get right to get the system to work for you. There is first the clamping of the jig to drill the holes. I the jig I have been showing here there is a clamp arm that you engage to hold the material against the drilling portion of the jig.

You can not hold these jigs in place with your hands, you have to clamp them to the work piece or all bets are off. You can clamp the material vertically or horizontally as shown here:

There are other clamping methods used with some of the other kreg jigs so what ever one came with your jig is the one that will most likely be the one to use.

You can often batch drilled a bunch of parts before assembly, some of these might require different settings resulting in different length screws. If this is the case they it is a good idea to use some way of marking the different lengths needed as sometime just pocket hole placement is not enough of a cue.

Next up we will talk about clamping of the materials when assembling the parts. Lots of options here and once again a good joint depends on good clamping. This will likely be tomorrow.

reible

Sticking with the face joint we have been looking at then the one the most basic ways to clamp the stock (to drive the screw in) is done as shown here:

[attachment=4]$matches[2][/attachment]

The front surface is located at the bottom and should be held flat by the clamp.

The clamp can be just between the parts or clamped to a flat surface. This type of clamp is called a "face clamp". They come in several lengths of engagement and most of the clamping systems provide at least one.

The problem is that if you are not careful the two parts can separate and move and before you know it the joint is not were it was. This is where clamping tables come into their own. By holding the parts not only flat to one another they can keep the parts from moving in any direction. I have a simple sheet of plywood that I attached some oak pieces to at a right angle that helps with getting the two parts right on for those sorts of joints. I also have the Rocker clamping table with many clamping options. If you are hoping to get good joints you will more then likely need to build a helper jig or buy one.

We have been discussion these flat joints and there are several other jigs they make for doing this. One of them is referred to as a bench clamp. This clamp is handy for much more then the clamping needed for these joints. Here is the clamp and the mount. The mount works in 20mm holes like on this drill press table and also 3/4" holes.

[attachment=3]$matches[2][/attachment]

Here it is in action:

[attachment=2]$matches[2][/attachment]

You can also get a plate to install in a work bench top, I have one on the kreg clamp board I made BTW.

[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]

Some of these clamps are worth while even if you don't go into pocket holes.

We haven't gotten into some of the other joints but to give you an idea of some of the clamps I have take a look at this collection:

We will look at a few more of them later on.

Next I'd like to look at edge joint, and that will be either later tonight or tomorrow.

reible

In this sort of joint it should be pretty obvious that the pockets have to go in the part labeled A. The same width rules apply to these joints, refer to previous posts for that information.

[attachment=2]$matches[2][/attachment]

While the joint is pretty clearly different it is also very different to clamp. While you might get by just clamping the one part I can tell you that it unlikely you will be happy with the results. Both pieces need to be held where you want them so when the screw goes in there is no movement of either piece.

Back in 2017 I needed to build another squirrel house. I used pocket screw and you can see one of the set of clamps I used to hold the parts in place. They are called 90 degree corner clamps:

[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]

Here they are in use:

The one of the other clamps I pictured works a bit differently and I have not found a picture of mine showing them in use so I will send you to amazon to see how they work:

https://www.amazon.com/KHCRA-Automaxx-Right-Angle-Clamp/dp/B01H1WFPWM/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=kreg+clamps+right+angle&qid=1579662548&sr=8-2

There are no doubt other clamping solutions from many competitors so if this has peaked your interest you might want to see what else is out there.

Next we will discuss when you are using different thickness of material and what is recommended and what is not.

reible

General thoughts are that pocket holes are used in material between 1/2" and 1-1/2". The jigs and clamps are functional in this range. Could you go to larger materials well yes and no. If you know what you are doing then have at it, if you don't then either learn or stick with the recommendations. I will later show a few things that are possible but again you should make sure you know what your are doing before trying them.

Looking first at face joint, you can combine any of the 1/2" to 1-1/2" A parts to any of the 1/2" to 1-1/2" B parts. You will need to shim parts so that you can clamp them flat for assembly but that is about it. In general again, the B part is expected to be at least 1-1/2" wide and anything wider is fine.

When you start mix and matching the edge joints you will have restrictions as to how you can do these. If the B part gets too thin then the screw will likely go though it. As an example if the A part is 1-1/2" then The B part can not be 1/2" - 3/4", you need a minimum of 7/8". This information is in tables and on the screw selector wheel.

Here is an example where things get a bit confusing for a table to explain so that thing called common sense comes into play. In this next example lets think of this being an apron being attached to a upright. In the first image the pocket holes are on the side labeled. There is no chance of the screw come though the B part so one could even use a longer screw, you do see that right?

[attachment=2]$matches[2][/attachment]

Now if for some reason, say appearance the pockets will not work as shown. Then possibly we would want to put the pockets on the other side. In this case it is still possible to do but if you go to far with the screw it coming out the side of B on the far side.

[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]

It is also possible that you want the A part some where in the middle of the B piece so in that case you are safe on having the pockets on either side or even both if it a utilitarian piece. And yes one could use longer screws.

This is it for tonight. Just a few more things to cover tomorrow and perhaps the next day depending on how things go. Again if this is confusing or you have questions please ask about things.

Ed in Tampa

I am learning, never knew the existence of the 90 degree corner clamps.

Ordering a set!

rpd

Excellent thread as usual. 🙂

To add my little bit to the discussion.

My tool budget is smaller than some, so this is my Kreg jig, an R3 plus a face clamp

[attachment=3]$matches[2][/attachment]

And a cautionary tale re screw placement.

This is a quick and dirty section of fence that I made with pocket screws some years ago to fence in part of the yard for a dog run.

[attachment=2]$matches[2][/attachment]

It is all still holding up well where the screws go sideways or up ... :cool:

[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]

but the bottom of the center brace, where the screws go down, has rotted through at the screw holes. :eek:

In hind sight, I should have bucked the rules and drilled that one from the bottom up into the end grain, so the water couldn't pool in the pocket holes. :o

reible

In the introduction for this thread I mentioned that kreg has a HD system that makes use of special drilling jig with larger bit to accommodate their larger screws. This is for 1-1/2 and thicker stock, like 2 x 4's and larger stock. It also needs a larger #3 square driver........

So the only version of this screw I have seen is a #14 x 2-1/2". It has a coating, a sort of brown color and works with treated wood. The drill bit provides a 1/2" step hole so the drilling jig also has only 2 holes, about 1-3/8 apart.

[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]

This is pretty much what you get in the kit except I forgot to bring up the allen wrench for the stop collar. The stop block slides into the drill guide for location of the holes from the edge. In the case where you might be doing say a repair you take off the stop and the end of the drill guide butts the adjacent part for location.

A small warning, these are not approved for structural work everywhere so check local code if doing jobs that will be inspected.

Next post we will look at the micro jig.

reible

When space is at a premium and you want to use pocket screws then it time to look at the kreg micro jig. The pocket hole is about 25% smaller. Because of this you also need to use only the pan head screws.

I have not introduced the nomenclature kreg uses for these but just for being able to say you have heard of it we will take a short detour here. I don't expect you to remember it, I know I certainly don't.....

Say I have box of screws I can pretty much look at them and determine what I have. But if you happen to have to order some or send someone out to buy a box then I guess it is handy to have a label.

As an example if I have a box labeled SPS-F1-100 then the SPS is the head type, or in this case we know it is a pan head. Had it been SML we would have know it was the maxi-loc. The F tells us that it is fine threaded, had it been a C it would tell us that it was a course thread. The 1 is the length followed by the 100 that says how many were in the box.

You can look all this stuff up if and when you need it now that you know that is a thing.

Back to the micro jig, how they get the reduction of the pocket hole is to have a smaller bit which of course needs a smaller guide. The HD version used a 1/2" bit, the standard version is a 3/8" bit and the micro is a 5/16" bit. The pocket hole spacing is the same as the standard version with the same 3 holes jig. With the reduced pocket hole size you can work on stock down to just 1" wide. It is also use for mitered corners.

The jig and bit look pretty much like the other version:

The black color I guess is to help you know just which jig you have???

I got this as an add on to my system so we will next look a bit more at the K4 part called the Portable Base in the next post.

reible

This is going back in time a bit but I think it worth the effort to better understand this system.

The first system I got wasn't much of a system. It was the mini jig, a single hole jig with no locations built in. You looked at the wood you had and were given three choices of thickness, 1/2", 3/4" and 1-1/2". You placed the jig so it was flush with the end of the wood for 3/4" so that was pretty simple to remember. If you wanted to use 1/2" material you pretty much had to go back to the instructions for information. That is what I just had to do, and found that the jig extended past the edge by 1/4". Same checking the manual gave me the 1-1/4" inch line in from the end for the 1-1/2" material.

You also had no way to know if you were placing the jig square to the end or not, more of a visual issue then anything I guess but some of us are like that.

[attachment=5]$matches[2][/attachment]

[attachment=4]$matches[2][/attachment]

They still sell this and it still come is handy from time to time.

Life and jigs evolve and next us was the R1/R2 Rocket jig. Once again the thought was the three basic wood thickness. This time they provide two holes a major plus and the way they located the jig provide a positive stop and a way to insure the jig was square.

[attachment=3]$matches[2][/attachment]

As shown the jig is set up for 3/4" stock. The part the pencil is point at is the base plate, to set up for 1/2" stock it gets turned around so the leg is pointed the other way. To set up for 1-1/2" stock the blue part to the right is installed it is called a riser block. The base plate is then added to get the location right. The change over is done via these two screws:

[attachment=2]$matches[2][/attachment]

At some point they came out with the newer style jig like I have now. Having the easier clamping and settings were a big influence and the deal was done.

What the other jigs provided was a pretty clear cut way to work on any size stock be it inches or feet long. There are just going to be times when the L shaped jig is just not going to cut it.

This is where the Portable base comes into play. It is not much to look at:

[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]

Like the L jigs you set the material thickness then you can clamp the jig to the work piece and drill away.

The L jig and this portable jig will take the standard, HD and the micro drill guides.

Next I want to cover repair applications which should be pretty short then on to a project. Thinking that will be tomorrow.

benush26

Ron,

Had a similar situation but had 40 plus posts to secure to a lower brace, so at least 120 holes. I did consider the wooden plugs but they were way too pricey for the total cost of the fence and no place locally carried enough to do the whole job. Ended up taking a caulking gun and shooting enough silicone caulk to fill up the drilled hole and then sort of smeared the extra up to make it semi flush with the vertical post surface (caulk was too runny to make it perfectly smooth and completely fill the drilled out area). It's lasted over 15 years with no water getting in to cause rot.

Just a thought.

Be well,

Ben