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Greenie rebuild issues

ssmall

Hello,

I'm in the middle of repairing an old "greenie" Shopsmith, and I'm having difficulty matching up and old machine with new parts.

My current issue is matching up the Drive Sleeve and Sheave to run a Gilmer belt.

The new Drive Sleeve came with a Poly belt drive.

My delimia depends on if I can remove the Gilmer drive from the old Drive Sleeve and install it on the new Drive Sleeve. If this is not possible, I guess my only option is to purchase a new Sheave with a Poly belt drive and a new Poly belt.

If I can interchange the belt drives from the old Drive Sleeve to the new Drive Sleeve, I'm good to go. If not, UGH!!!! :mad: I need to order more parts.

Thank you for you assistance in advance!

Shawn

ssmall

Upon futher investigation comparing the Drive Sleeves, I found the old Drive Sleeve has a set screw securring a collar that is used as a stop for the Gilmer drive on the Drive Shaft.

The new Drive Sleeve does not have a set screw, and I did'nt want to disassemble it to find it wont work with the Gilmer drive.

I guess I'll have to replace the Idler Sheave assembly with a new unit and a Poly belt.

Hopefully this will be the last issue I have prior to assembling the Greenie. :rolleyes:

IMG_6712 - Copy.JPG

chapmanruss

As you have now found out the later Gilmer Drive Sleeves have a clutch. The Poly V Drive does not need a clutch since the belt can slip and provide that function. Now that you have the Gilmer Drive Sleeve apart you should know it is very difficult to get it back together with the proper clutch slippage. Since you have most of the parts anyway, as shown in your first picture, going to the Poly V Drive may be best. You will need the Poly V Drive Sheave on the Idler Shaft to complete the change-over. Because they are different Drive Sleeve systems, clutch vs. non-clutch, parts are not interchangeable.

The original Gilmer Drive Sleeves did not have a clutch and could easily break belts. The clutch was added in the first changes to the Mark 5 headstock in 1954.

JPG

Nothing has been said(yet) re the quill incompatibility. Old quill needs old drive sleeve.(and vice versa), Since it appears you have a newer quill, the only parts you now need to complete an entire gilmer to poly-v conversion is the idler sheave and a poly-v belt.

rpd

chapmanruss wroteAs you have now found out the later Gilmer Drive Sleeves have a clutch. The Poly V Drive does not need a clutch since the belt can slip and provide that function. Now that you have the Gilmer Drive Sleeve apart you should know it is very difficult to get it back together with the proper clutch slippage. Since you have most of the parts anyway, as shown in your first picture, going to the Poly V Drive may be best. You will need the Poly V Drive Sheave on the Idler Shaft to complete the change-over. Because they are different Drive Sleeve systems, clutch vs. non-clutch, parts are not interchangeable.

The original Gilmer Drive Sleeves did not have a clutch and could easily break belts. The clutch was added in the first changes to the Mark 5 headstock in 1954.

I must have gotten lucky. When I rebuilt my Gilmer drive I lightly sanded all the clutch plates to remove rust (metal plates), and clean up the friction plates. When I put it back together I somehow missed one out of the pack, but it still tested within specs, so I didn't bother to take it apart again. Getting it together wasn't that difficult using the bearing puller.

ssmall

Thank you all for your input, I sure appreiciate it! 🙂

I ordered a P/N: 515556-0001 Control Sheave "assembly" form Shopsmith. I was dissapointed when it arrived and did not include the drive shaft, Poly belt gear and the oposing Sheave. :confused:

Now I'm really confused as to what other parts I need for the conversion.

I guess I'll need all the parts for the entire Control Sheave. This would include item numbers: 304,303,104,103,103A,105,106,107,108,109, already have a new 110,112, and I assume the 111 is attached to the P/N: 515556-0001 (Control Sheave "assy").

(I've attached the MV parts diagram for reference) :confused:

New Control Sheave.JPG

MV Parts diagram.pdf

ssmall

I guess if I were to slow down and actually read the parts descriptions, I would find that P/N: 504177 (Idler Shaft assy.) includes parts 105-113. :o

That said, I can only assume I still need the remaining parts. :confused:

Hopefully when I order these parts: 222458 (set screw), 515616 (Eccentric Bushing assy.), 504177 (Idler Shaft assy.) I will than actually have the required parts to complete the conversion. :)

JPG

You need "Item: 5041809 (Reference #109)" Idler sheave.

All the other parts in the 'assembly' are the same as what you have originally. They have not changed(this version) since day uno.

You already have the quill and drive sleeve parts.(IIRC)

PS, you may need advice re removing 107.

And let us not fergit the poly-v belt.

ssmall

Gee I feel stupid... :o I over tightned the bolt securring the Eccentric Bushing and broke one side of the cast Eccentric Bushing retainer.

Needless to say I'm shopping for a Headset Case. Does anyone know if other models have compatable Headset Cases?

I found a Headset Case that appears everything is the same visually, other than an extra hole around the speed control drive belt.

Thank you in advance!

Broken Eccentric Bushing Retainer.JPG

JPG

ANY headstock casting will accept ANY set of internal parts EXCEPT the power switch and rear medallion and external tinnerman clips. However the early belt covers have more screws/holes which the later castings have no place to put them.

ssmall

The headset I found says it is compatable with "B" models. I asked the seller if it would work with my Greenie and he replied he had no idea.

Being that I would completely replace the Headstock Case, I assume the difference with lack of screws/holes for the belt cover is a moot point?

JPG

ssmall wroteThe headset I found says it is compatable with "B" models. I asked the seller if it would work with my Greenie and he replied he had no idea.

Being that I would completely replace the Headstock Case, I assume the difference with lack of screws/holes for the belt cover is a moot point?

YEP!!! Sorta! The greenies are either "A" or "B" headstocks. The "A" belt cover screws go into tapped holes in the casting. The "B" belt cover screws go into tinnerman nuts. IF the "B" headstock includes the tinnerman nuts all is well. If not, you will need to acquire them. Truth be known only TWO screws/tinnerman nuts are required. Later models only have two belt cover retaining screws.

P.S. I overlooked the motor pan above. 4 more clips!

edma194

I didn't have a problem with installing a PowerPro in a type A casting and using a belt cover from different greenie and a motor pan that came from a goldie. You may need tinnerman clips but everything should still fit together.

chapmanruss

An "A" or "B" Headstock will work fine as a replacement and look just about the same on the outside as your original Headstock depending on if you have an "A" or "B" Headstock already. Externally the only changes you would see is the original "A" Headstock had 8 screws to hold on the belt cover than changed to 6 screws. The "B" Headstock started with 6 screws for the belt cover than went to 2 in 1956 or 1957. I don't recall which year. It has been 2 screws to hold on the belt cover ever since. The "A" Headstock also had the high speed lock. None of these changes will make any difference in how your Headstock works and the internal parts are compatible. Having a "B" Headstock which has the drilled and tapped hole in the casting that uses a screw to retain the Idler Shaft Eccentric would be like what you already have as shown in your picture. There is also the screw hole in your eccentric which is a good thing as these two screws help hold the eccentric and Idler bearing in place and the clamping bolt keeps them there with little force needed. The "C" Headstock can be used but requires the red safety key switch.

JPG

OH! One other 'difference'.

The speed control indicator ring is different. The "A" version has a step in the groove on the back side. The "B" version has a small ramp. The "A" has a push plate and the "B" version has a small easily lost spring.

ssmall

I'm having difficulty with the installation of the Drive Belt.

It seems that due to the high tension of the Drive Sheave Spring, the Drive Sheaves will not expand.

Thus inhibiting the belt to allow adjustment of the speed control from Fast to Slow.

Any helpful tips will be greatly appreiciated!

Thank you in advance!

Shawn

Drive Sheave Spring.JPG

chapmanruss

Shawn,

Has the motor's floating pulley sheave been oiled? My first suspect is always lack of lubrication on the motor shaft for that floating pulley sheave. There will be an oil hole under the spring in the sheave's sleeve over the motor shaft like the one in the Idler floating sheave in your earlier picture. From the picture the spring does look like it is unevenly compressing. I don't know if there is a problem there. Is there any crud built up under the spring cap? That could cause the spring to be unable to compress as much as it should.

DLB

I was working on one recently, same symptoms. On mine the floating sheave and fan sheave would bind to each other when they got close. I don't know exactly what caused it, I had an extra motor and swapped floating sheaves between them and they both worked correctly, so I didn't troubleshoot further. It is easy to tell if you take the spring off, they would stick every time. I'd try more thorough cleaning of the two sheaves if it happened to me again.

To oil it per Russ's suggestion you'll probably need to compress the spring some to get access to the oil hole. This should help you differentiate between 'spring won't compress' and 'floating sheave is binding to ???' It can be binding to the motor shaft, fan sheave, or key.

Personal opinion - I would disassemble it to clean the gunk out of there once it is sticking, then oil afterwards. This part of the machine needs to be oiled, but dirt and especially sawdust stick to the oil and over time you get some buildup in there. And it gets worse when the machine sits unused (or un-oiled) for an extended period because the oil dries out, leaving the residue. Disassembling it will also give you a chance to inspect everything.

- David

ssmall

chapmanruss wrote Has the motor's floating pulley sheave been oiled? Is there any crud built up under the spring cap?

Yes the floating pulley sheave has been oiled.

There's no crud built up under the spring cap, as I throughly cleaned and lubericated all parts prior to assembly.

When the spring is removed from the sheave shaft, the sheaves move freely.

It seems that the spring is too long (creating too much tension on the floating sheave) to allow any movement.

This is confusing as the drive sheaves,spring and spring cap are original and were merely removed, cleaned and inspected prior to luberication and re-assembly. :confused:

DLB

I don't understand what's going on with this one, just offering some info. My Greenie has speed control issues so it is stuck at one speed, fairly slow, and I'm not using it. I got it out just to compare. So, even though my spring is mostly compressed I can still move the floating sheave or the spring cap reasonably easily, just not very far.

Is the fan sheave positioned correctly? This pic is not the best angle for seeing that. There should be a relatively small gap between the back of the sheave and the sheet metal on the front of the motor. IIRC around 1/16", so that most of the fan part is on the motor side of that sheet metal plate. But it would have to be way off to cause this problem, and I think it would show in the picture.

Correct spring? Should be made from round wire IIRC. Newer ones are more of a flat wire spring.

More thinking needed on this...

- David