bartll
jerryjankura wroteI think is just one example of SS not understanding the market. Nothing frosts me more than having to adjust my out-feed table every time I raise or lower my blade height, tilt my table or move the carriage to better if for the wood or something. I would buy a out-feed table that adjusted with my table in a heart beat but they don't offer one.
If I was running Shopsmith I would have one of these on the market tomorrow at a price no SS owner could refuse and I offer one or two accessories that carried a good profit margin and I bet I could recoup my development costs in a short period of time.
I'll buy into that thought. I bought the "power lift" about a week after they had it on the market. We even drove down to Dayton to pick it up.
Question - besides the "self adjusting" outfeed table, what other attachments do you think would become "must haves"?
-- Jerry J.
Jerry Ridgid has a flat top stand similar to a roller stand. I've heard good thing about. I looked at one Friday the top is flat & adjustable up & down. the top tilts just slightly toward the saw & as the material starts to slide onto it it pivots to a flat position. This may help.
Unfortunately while the SS has some fantastic ideas implemented in the units they have manufactures in many areas they still have a ways to go. To put it succinctly the table-saw is not one of these. My Dad actually looked at SS back in the 50's & went with stand alone tools. His first commission a desk paid for a full sized Craftsman contractor saw which I have today & it still works fine. His next commission paid for the 6" C-man jointer I have today of course this means I have 2 t-saws & 2 jointers 2 planers 1 portable I floor model, 2 drill-presses 1 radial floor model 1 table top (my sister got his floor model & his 12" band-saw) I have both a 12" & a 14" band-saw with raiser block. I also have both of his shapers & both his 12" & his 10" RAS's as well as his (C-man lathe in storage )a 1930's Delta lathe & a Jet mini lathe which I won in a drawing. Dad's T-saw, 10" RAS, jointer & Air compressor are in storage I have the rest of the tools in my 13.5 x 24.5 shop. Even though it is crowded I still wouldn't want a SS.
So what can I say I am blessed with tools.
dusty
:) bartll, I am so happy for you and your sister. It seems that you are both interested in woodworking and that you have each been setup with a pretty nice compliment of equipment.
I would sure like to see some photos of your shop and of the work that you each produce. Your father was a woodworker and I feel certain that he must have passed on not only the equipment but many of the skills associated with a craftsman's shop.
Go make sawdust, much of it!
reible
"Unfortunately while the SS has some fantastic ideas implemented in the units they have manufactures in many areas they still have a ways to go. To put it succinctly the table-saw is not one of these. My Dad actually looked at SS back in the 50's & went with stand alone tools. His first commission a desk paid for a full sized Craftsman contractor saw which I have today & it still works fine. His next commission paid for the 6" C-man jointer I have today of course this means I have 2 t-saws & 2 jointers 2 planers 1 portable I floor model, 2 drill-presses 1 radial floor model 1 table top (my sister got his floor model & his 12" band-saw) I have both a 12" & a 14" band-saw with raiser block. I also have both of his shapers & both his 12" & his 10" RAS's as well as his (C-man lathe in storage )a 1930's Delta lathe & a Jet mini lathe which I won in a drawing. Dad's T-saw, 10" RAS, jointer & Air compressor are in storage I have the rest of the tools in my 13.5 x 24.5 shop. Even though it is crowded I still wouldn't want a SS.
So what can I say I am blessed with tools."
From this I would have to say you don't have a shopsmith.... for most of us here we would feel that is unfortunate. But as has been the case for years, some people get it some people don't.... I guess this puts you in the don't class.
Anyway welcome and enjoy reading about our favorite tool the Shopsmith.
Ed
scottss
First of all welcome Bart. You must have a large shop I also would like to see pics of both your shop and projects. Here is a comment I posted somewhere else.
Totally dig the shopsmith. I have built more professional projects with my shopsmith then when I had stand alone tools. It is a joy to use. Setups are fast easy and accurate. I changed from stand alone machines to shopsmith because of lack of space. Now I have plenty of room and great tools. Longevity is a huge plus in my book and just look at the old shopsmiths still being used. Mine is 27 years old and it preforms like new. As for table saw I still haven't run into anything that the shopsmith couldn't handle.:cool:
It appears that your machines are holding up quite well also. I don't know if we will be able to say that about the tools on the market today though.
bartll
"From this I would have to say you don't have a shopsmith.... for must of us here we would feel that is unfortunate. But as has been the case for years, some people get it some people don't.... I guess this puts you in the don't class.
Anyway welcome and enjoy reading about our favorite tool the Shopsmith."
Reible
As much as I would like to see SS survive & yes I do get it. For you the SS works & thats great. For me I grew up with individual pieces of equipment & I just move from one piece of equipment to the next as I work. I also use this equipment for work as a maintenance man for 2 apartment complexes so the SS would slow me down greatly.
Also I was able to purchase 1 piece of equipment at a time for cash as I needed it just like my Dad did. A few examples a 1930's Delta lathe $50 1940 Delta Unisaw $250 + the fun refurbishing of same saw $650 total $900 a new Unisaw costs I believe about $1500 or more, Radial Arm Drill-press $175, C-man 6" jointer $200, portable planer $200, 1950 C-man 12" Band-saw $90, Dads 12" C-man RAS free, CMS about $150 total about $1765.00 I think this may come to a little less in cost than the base SS. If I'm wrong sorry.
The other thing I get is that some of the things needed for the SS are particular to the SS you can't just go down town to Ace or where ever & pick it up & go right back to work.
I also understand having to work around changing your tool set up & putting everything in tool use order so that the work can flow I have to do this to a certain extent now but unlike the SS I am not locked into this. The only tool I have this problem with is my Table-saw with the router table in the left wing.
I have absolutely no animosity or problem with people that have SS & enjoy them. I am just pointing out a few of the things that SS is coming up against.
I wouldn't mind having a SS but it would just be a tool to experiment & play around with. I have a friend with 2 of them an older one & a later model but mostly they just set there because he also has a full complement of tools & realizes the SS short comings. He uses one as a lathe the other he uses with a special set up to sharpen his planer blades & jointer blades.
I wish all SS owners nothing but the best & hope that SS will continue making their tool system. I'll be here from time to time to see whatcha all are doing. I will also take a closer look at my friends SS.
8iowa
Bartll:
Welcome to the Shopsmith forum. Regardless of why you are here, you will find that this forum has a lot of dedicated woodworkers and vast resources of woodworking talent. Since you are new, I will recommend that you visit The Academy on this website. The academy is headed by one of the formost woodworkers, Nick Engler, and through the wonders of computer technology, the Shopsmith Academy is able to put the classroom right on your computer desk. To the best of my knowledge, no other manufacturer or retailer is doing anything like this. Nick is also a regular on this forum, and frequently helps woodworkers with tips and woodworking education.
Yes. You are "blessed" with tools, and "cursed" with lack of space - if my math is correct you only have about 330 sq ft. How can you do anything - especially with two table saws! I would assume that you have most of your machines on mobile bases.
Perhaps you can help me with a quandry that I can't understand. Namely, why do the advocates of stand alone tools prefer to push and shove heavy machinery around, some of it rather top heavy ---- and then refuse the concept of the Shopsmith because it has to be "changed over" from one mode to the next. A quality table saw will weigh 500 lbs or more. This is not easy to move - even on a level and smooth floor. On the other hand, I can change modes on my Shopsmith quickly and easily, even sipping coffee in the process.
When your father looked at a Shopsmith in the 50's, he was looking at a machine that is primitive by today's standards. Depending on the model, it had only 1/2 or 3/4 HP. Today's Shopsmith 520 has 1 1/8 HP, a large table surface, and a double locking fence that is equal to the best aftermarket fences. By-the-way, most of the earliest Shopsmith 500's can be upgraded to equal the latest 510 and 520 Shopsmith models.
Shopsmith is continually criticized because of the tilting table. However, If you are cutting bevels on boards not longer than about 4' you can cut bevels on the Shopsmith and do it with as much precision as on the best table saw. In fact, without changing your table setting, you can switch from saw blade to disk sander and sand the bevel. Actually, the Shopsmith in saw mode has some advantages. With variable speed, you can avoid burn marks, and even cut sheet plastic without getting a melted mess. In many table saws, changing blades is difficult - even hazardous. I can change from a rip blade to a cross-cut blade in seconds, using only a 5/32 allen "T" wrench.
For 27 years I had to do my woodworking in a little over 1/2 of a two car garage. There is no way in which I could have functioned with your complement of tools. The Shopsmith made it possible for me to elevate my woodworking skills to a point I would have not thought possible in the beginning. Now that I have been able to build my dream 24'x28' workshop am I going to buy a new table saw to plop down in the middle of the floor? Not on your life - I've purchased a second Shopsmith along with Shopsmith's variable speed power stand for my bandsaw, scroll saw, and belt sander. I'll have almost all of the advantages of stand alone tools and never have to shove heavy machinery around.
I hope that you will keep an open mind and keep coming back and contributing to this forum.
dusty
I'm a little confused, bartll. What exactly is the point you are trying to make. I understand you have a standalone shop and you are happy with it. I also understand that you have purchased your equipment for cash, as you go. That is great.
I understand that you believe you can save time using your standalone equipment over the time required to use a Shopsmith. Given the time required to maintain all those pieces of standalone vs a single Shopsmith, I doubt that but what I believe is really not important. You are using your equipment in a situation where time-is-money. If you perceive that you are saving time/money by using and maintaining multiple pieces of equipment - I say, go for it. Keep up the good work.
I chose to purchase a Shopsmith many, many years ago for all of my own reasons. I have used that same machine for all of these many years and it still serves me well. I believe I probably build a representative sample of everything that you do and I feel my Shopsmith has not let me down there either. I shall continue to use my Shopsmith.
You see, I think the point is - Use what you think you are most comfortable with, that does what you need it to do, that you can best afford to own and be happy.
Don't try to change my mind. I am an old, stubborn man - set in his ways and I'll probably never change the basic configuration of my shop. Furthermore, I have two grandkids that will likely move into the shop one day and use it for another 20, 30, 40 years. They've all been taught maintenance as well as woodworking. This is part of my legacy.
:)
bartll
8iowa wroteBartll:
Yes. You are "blessed" with tools, and "cursed" with lack of space - if my math is correct you only have about 330 sq ft. How can you do anything - especially with two table saws! I would assume that you have most of your machines on mobile bases.
Perhaps you can help me with a quandry that I can't understand. Namely, why do the advocates of stand alone tools prefer to push and shove heavy machinery around, some of it rather top heavy ---- and then refuse the concept of the Shopsmith because it has to be "changed over" from one mode to the next.
8iowa
I have 1 table-saw 1 Jointer 1 RAS & 1 air compressor in storage because my Dad just gave me his tools. Out of that group of tools I have his Belsaw planer & 2 shapers in my shop. The only tools I move are the planer & the bigger shaper to do raised panel doors & either of the 2 band-saws but most of the time I can leave the small bandsaw in place & use it. I also have a panel-saw setting outside under a special shelter made for it, another $100 deal this lets me cut everything from 5'x12' Formica to sheet goods down before I bring it into the shop. I don't like handling full sized sheet goods to run them through a TS anyway & don't much care to use a circular saw it I don't have to.
As to why someone buys a SS & others buy stand alone tools? Why do some buy Chevy's & others buy Fords?
So lets all buy SS's & how many other tools companies would be put out of business not to mention other industries that support their efforts wow now you talking big bucks. I understand the loss I remember when Studebaker went out of business they had the same problems SS is having now. At one time Studebaker was considered the car to buy by a selected group of people others preferred Chevy's or Ford's.
Yes your right I would have more room to do what ever if I had a SS. But you like what you have & I like what I have. There is no real point here just discussing some of the problems the SS company faces & talking about what I enjoy talking about tools & wood working.
The only reason I have as many tools as I do is because I came across some good deals & put my shop together & then Dad gave me his tools when he no longer had a place to keep them. Heck if he ever have a place for them I'd haul all of them right back to him. I have a real hard time seeing him without his tools even if he never uses them again. He probably wouldn't use them very much he will be 86 this coming January.
This is my Free web site there is a pop up window on the right side just close it. With the exception of 3 upper cabinets I built what you see in the shop. I am still in the process of deciding what to build for the apartment which isn't very big. We are required to live here to work here.
The arraignment has changed & my Dad's tools are not in these pictures.
http://bartswoodshop.freeservers.com/
To be honest I would like to be in someones shop & watch them in the process of building a project using a complete SS system with all the bells & whistles. I understand there is a learning curve to get used to using a SS.
I saw a quick demo years ago in a store. It looked like everything was all laid out real well & in order. I asked the person putting on the demo how many times he had done that particular demo & he said maybe 30 times. My only thought was practice makes perfect & much faster too. But the same goes for any machine work with any machine.
Measure twice cut once make the project of your dreams.
james.miller
I have to wonder how many square feet of BARTII has in his shop? There is no way that I can have all of the different tools that I use without my Shopsmith and SPTs. There are times it would be nice to have a Euro saw, 8" long bed jointer, and a 20" or larger planer but realistically I don't have anywhere to put them and I have been able to make the Shopsmith do what I need it to.
For now I will keep my Shopsmith as it is just the right size for my shop.
dickg1
Bartll,
I just don't get your point. If you don't use or even want a Shopsmith that's OK. If you want to let us know that you have a great shop in a small space, that's OK. I think I can speak for most of us that it's OK for you to even brag about it. But, let's face it. Each of us have our reasons for buying and using the equipment we have.
If you were in the military as I was for 21 years and enjoyed woodworking as I do I don't think your workshop layout would have worked for me. Ergo, the Shopsmith which has served me faithfully for 44 years. I have been able to upgrade it to the latest version and add components as I have had a need or desire. I pick up the latest tips for using it for free by watching a renowned woodworker put the equipment thru its' paces. It is admirable that you are able to maintain 60+ year old equipment for a reasonable cost but it isn't the latest version of that equipment, and frankly, because of the caliber of the latest made overseas stuff you probably wouldn't want to.
BTW, Studebaker went out of business because it was destroyed by it's workers who decided to weld coke bottles into enclosed places and do other damaging things to the automobiles because they had a gripe with management. I haven't heard of that happening with Shopsmith.
Best regards and have a great Thanksgiving
Dickg1
bartll
There isn't any point I just like talking wood working & tools.
From what I've read about Studebaker the coke bottle incident (which I hadn't heard of) is just a small part of the problems they had mismanagement was the biggest part.
Can you point me to somewhere to read about the coke bottles it kind of interesting?
Oh by the way thanks for your military service. I served 15 years myself.
Oh you know that Studebaker is on the way back slowly.
http://www.studebakermotorcompany.com/showroom.phtml
a1gutterman
Hi fellow SS'ers, but more importantly, ShopSmith owners (and stockholders),
I know this is an old thread, but as Nick has recently (post 30 of this thread:
https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=2159 ) put up this challenge, as greitz calls it in post 33 of the same thread, I thought that this thread wood be appropriate to add to, rather then start a new one. I apologize if I am still trying to ride that dead horse, but...
A call for suggestions that address the gaining of revenue vs. cost of producing that revenue has been made. I recall some scuttlebutt on the forum about ShopSmith selling the building that they are currently in. And then there was talk of the sale failing. Has any thought or effort been made to renting or leasing the parts of the building that are knot being used by ShopSmith? I am knot familiar with the surroundings there, as I have never visited, but whether they are located in a retail area or an industrial area, that might be a viable option. If that has been tried, please accept my apologies for the suggestion. At least that is a suggestion that wood generate revenue for little or no expense.
Another revenue-generating-for-little-expense suggestion: Do you suppose that "Smitty" (Mike Young) wood have had any luck with the venture that he started? If the same idea was used, but backed by ShopSmith, wood there be any interest? Pretty much there wood be no expense
UNTIL a customer "placed an order" for the service of "Smitty". The option could be put up on the SS web site, and if there was an order placed for the service, SS could send a qualified "Smitty" to wherever to do whatever for the customer at a predetermined price. I know that it wood cost a lot to send someone and put him/her up for a certain, contracted amount of time, but if the customer knew how much and was willing to pay it, why knot? No cost until there was an order, and then a price that wood generate a guaranteed profit. Maybe woodburner wood be a qualified person, or even Mike Young, or some of the laid-off SS employees.
Well, so far I have come up with two possibilities. Both could generate revenue for more then the expenses to implement them.
Nick
Just so you don't feel you're whistling in the wind, Tim:
1. The sign on our building reads "For Sale or Lease." It's in an industrial park where there are five similar buildings with similar signs, none of which seem to be doing the owners any good. Part of the reason is the bursting of the Mortgage bubble. Money for real estate is very tight. The other is more Dayton-specific. We are in the rustiest part of the Rust Belt. Go to the Forbes web site and you'll find Dayton, Ohio listed among the ten fastest dying cities in America. Since the 1980 census, we have lost nearly 20% of our population. Many of those who are left would like to move but you can't sell (or lease) real estate in a ghost town.
2. Let's do a quick cost analysis of the "Smitty" Service. Let's say Dusty wants us to send Smitty to his place in sunny Arizona for a 5-day week. Presuming we can book a month ahead, the low-end cost for flight/hotel/car is about $1400 according to Orbitz. Call it $1500 with taxes. Cost of Smitty's salary is likely to be in the neighborhood of $18 to $20 per hour, plus $6 to $7 for FICA, Workman's Comp, and Unemployment. I don't have the costs on Shopsmith's overhead, but when I ran a small publishing firm it was about $17/hr. We're around $40 to $45 per hour -- call it $350 per day. Cost to Dusty is $3250 approx., and we haven't yet figured in the cost of marketing this service or marking it up so we can make a profit. Off-hand, it doesn't look like a winner to me.
I didn't go through this excercise to dismiss your ideas or justify ignoring them. In point of fact, we don't ignore ideas on this forum -- Doug and I often bring them up in our weekly meetings with Bob and Marketing. But we do analyze them and discard those the clearly won't serve. And -- winners or losers -- we appreciate the effort.
My post in thread #2159 doesn't challenge anyone to come up with ideas. You folks took it as a challenge because that's the kind of helpful, concerned people you are, and God bless you for it. What I was trying to say without treading on anyone's toes was that these suggestions rarely consider cost versus return. Neither do they take into account all the problems we face, both economic and cultural.
Perhaps the best example of this is live demos. This is the part of that poor, deceased horse that gets beaten more than any other. As recently as last year, Shopsmith hired 20 new salesmen/demonstrators, trained them, and put them on the road at great expense. After a few weeks, the number of machines they had sold could be counted on one hand. We had to let most of our salesmen go -- new and old -- at great loss. Demos, which had been the mainstay of our marketing efforts for half a century, no longer work except in very limited and specific environments such as state fairs. There has been a cultural shift and we are trying to adapt to it. However fondly you folks may remember the demonstration that introduced you to the Shopsmith, we can't afford to bring them back. The return doesn't justify the cost in this new cultural climate.
If you continue to submit ideas, we will continue to appreciate them. We will also continue to analyze them and pursue only those those that promise a good return for the cost invested.
With all good wishes,
jg300da
Nick wrote
However fondly you folks may remember the demonstration that introduced you to the Shopsmith, we can't afford to bring them back.
I'll ad myself to the list of owners sold at a demonstration, and it's obvious that this mode of sales is economically unfeasible today. That may be too big of an obstacle for Shopsmith to overcome. This tool needs to be seen to be sold. A magazine ad can't possibly show it's true value or range of options. Infomercial might be the only way to demonstrate the tool properly.
dusty
Thank you, Nick for taking the time to respond. We appreciate this effort as well as the efforts that go into the web page and the sawdust sessions.
I just feel duty bound to do something to help this all survive and continue. It has given me so much. After being laid up for many, many months, I needed something to giveme a reason to keep up the fight. The Sawdust Sessions and my shop helped to rekindle my appreciation for the time I spend in the shop.
dickg1
bartll wroteThere isn't any point I just like talking wood working & tools.
From what I've read about Studebaker the coke bottle incident (which I hadn't heard of) is just a small part of the problems they had mismanagement was the biggest part.
Can you point me to somewhere to read about the coke bottles it kind of interesting?
Bartll, I too have Googled looking for a reference to the "coke bottle" stuff and can find no reference to that or to the horrific labor/management problems that occurred at Studebaker. It was during this time that Studebaker ran ads about the "Studebaker Family" in order to show labor/management solidarity.
My interest was in Raymond Lowey (a renowned industrial designer) who was responsible for the Studebaker "which way is it going" look and I was interested in buying one. Never did, though.
Sorry I can't give you a better reference other than what I remember about the time!
Dick
dickg1
Nick wroteIf you continue to submit ideas, we will continue to appreciate them. We will also continue to analyze them and pursue only those those that promise a good return for the cost invested.
Nick, I have followed this thread from the start and don't recall anyone mentioning "bingo cards". A small ad in the "back of the book" coupled with a number on a bingo card may provide some returns for info.
ShopSmith is more capable that I to determine what the info sent to the requestor might be but, to keep cost to a minimum, I would suggest the Shopsmith DVD info package, Forum info, a catalog request form, references to "Hands on Line", etc. In effect, that info which might provide someone with the confidence that the initial entry expense is well worth it.
Let's face it, you can build cabinets with a hand saw and a hammer. Not only that, the home stores sell cabinet carcases and complete cabinets which in many cases are good enough! Buying a ShopSmith is a huge initial expense if you do not have confidence in a payback. At this juncture, ShopSmith probably needs to sell the sizzle, then the steak.
Dick
Nick
"...ShopSmith probably needs to sell the sizzle, then the steak."
Amen. Which is why you can look forward to more wish-book projects like the "Shopsmith Tool Chest" and the "Grandmother Clock" in the future. It's also the idea behind the Owner's Gallery which I just can't seem to find the time to get together.
Tell me more about "bingo cards." We do card decks -- those have worked for us -- but I'm unfamiliar with bingo cards as a marketing tool.
With all good wishes,
dickg1
Nick wrote"...ShopSmith probably needs to sell the sizzle, then the steak."
Tell me more about "bingo cards." We do card decks -- those have worked for us -- but I'm unfamiliar with bingo cards as a marketing tool.
With all good wishes,
Nick, a "bingo card" is one that you find bound into a magazine. It has many numbers on it. You circle (underline,mark) the number (s) you are interested in which correspond to a number printed on your ad. The publisher of the magazine receives the (postage free) cards, and then sends pre-printed labels of the requestors to the companies who's ads are represented by the numbers that have been marked. It only takes a small ad in the magazine ( 1/8 of a page). Depending upon the draw interest of the ad, the return can be far greater than the usual 1 or 2% that you can usually expect. Card decks were once popular. Unfortunately, most of them are scanned very quickly, or at all, and then discarded since they are unsolicited. When you circle a number on a "bingo card" you are indicating a real interest in the information the ad offers - the sizzle!
A quick check of current periodicals: Popular Woodworking, August 2008, has a "bingo card". Note that some of the ads with a number are about 1/16" of a page! I would bet that those that have interest in the ad, have circled the corresponding number.
Dick
shydragon
Years ago, before the internet, the Bingo card worked for me. But, now days, if I see an ad of something I might be interested, I want to see or learn about it now. Then I go to the internet and read about it on the manufactures website.
