JPG
In my case the 950k was derived by my subtracting his 50k fee from the 1m raised. I do not recall any other reference prior to that post.
RFGuy
adrianpglover wrote
RFGuy wrote
Inflation, which is the rate of price increase on an aggregate group of products, is getting back to "normal" which is around 2-3%. Since it had ticked up and peaked at around June 2022, it is now retreating back to normal, which means many prices that had inflated are now deflating - otherwise the inflation rate would not be returning to normal as it is an aggregate of many product prices.
The first part of what you posted here is true.
The latter part, saying that at an inflation rate of 2-3% means that prices are going back down, hence deflation, is not correct. Deflation means that the "inflation rate" is actually negative, i.e. <0%. Since rates are at 2-3%, this means that the aggregate group of products and services is still going up in price, but just at a rate that the Fed uses as their general target.
Adrian,
I wasn't talking the textbook definition of deflation as applied to the entire marketplace, but rather a sub-group of products dropping in price. You know how inflation is calculated, right? The gov't uses several indices, but since we are talking about a consumer product here (Shopsmith namely), I am referencing more of the CPI and PPI components of the inflation rate calculation. These are aggregated numbers meaning there are specific companies and products chosen to give a composite image of the entire US economy. You can have an inflation rate of 2-3% meaning that across this composite image of many products and companies some are increasing in price, some staying the same and some are actually decreasing (deflating) in price. Since the inflation rate is returning to the more normal 2-3% now from what it was last year, there are likely many products decreasing in price recently, i.e. back to where their price points were before it started inflating. This is my simplistic view of it, but accurate in my opinion. You would have to be an expert economist to give a more granular detail on what is actually happening in the macroeconomic world beyond my description here.
adrianpglover
I know this data is rather old (~19 years ago), but 950k or even 1M does seem a bit low considering their sales figures from 2005.
https://last10k.com/sec-filings/ssmh According to the filing, net sales were at $13.359M for the year. This again is for the prior incarnation of the company, before RLF Shop, but I don't think the company has decreased by that much, unless during the reorg they sold off a large portion of their assets and mfg and are currently only the customer facing portion of the company.
@RF Guy - Yes, some prices would come down with inflation coming back down to 2-3%, but that's going to be more driven by market competition. Another factor to think/talk about here is what products/services are getting cheaper over the longer term. I've seen a few of these charts over the years, but this one by Visual Capitalist is the one that I could find with the most recent pricing data. The data span is over 22 years (2000-2022) and shows that while things like medical, college, childcare, food, and housing have had pretty decent amount of total price increase (not just yearly inflation, but think of it more as yearly inflation compounded), things like cars, home furnishings, and clothing have stayed pretty flat, things like cell phones, software, toys, and tvs have dropped significantly over that period. This doesn't show what the chart would be like for woodworking tools as a whole, but it would be interesting to get the source data from the BLM and make our own charts for other industries. For my own interests, woodworking, cameras, and popup campers would be interesting to see, as there are other market forces at work in each of these interests of mine that have caused various pricing pressures over the years.
*** edit: forgot the link -
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/inflation-chart-tracks-price-changes-us-goods-services/
RFGuy
Adrian,
Thanks. Yeah, I agree with you. Is it just competition that causes prices to fall? I don't know. I mean if a manufacturer or even a warehouse/store operation that has falling demand (or oversupply) for whatever reason, they can't sit on inventory forever because of fixed costs like utilities, employee salaries, etc., etc. At some point they are going to have to lower prices or go out of business. Sure lowering the price will eat into any margin that they have and they might even have to sell it for a loss, but at some point it becomes inevitable unless demand rebounds. This is my worry with Shopsmith...I know we aren't supposed to share worries here. ;) There is lots of competition in the woodworking tool machinery space and most of them are using offshore manufacturing with a cost advantage. However, the perception that I have of Shopsmith is they still think they have a monopoly because their machine is unique. IF my perception is true and they are raising prices because they think they can and expect demand will remain constant then I am worried for their future. I believe raising prices too much on their products will only accelerate their demise, which is not something that I want to see. For a long time, I loved my Shopsmith equipment and felt more connected to it because of nostalgia of working on a Mark V with my Dad when I started to learn woodworking. We both still use our respective Mark V's. Given what I detailed above, I only like my Shopsmith equipment now when I used to love it. One day, if and when it breaks, if the repair parts are perceived by me to be too expensive, I will have no qualms with offering up my equipment at a firesale for any takers and replacing it with a good quality cabinet TS, lathe and drill press in my small shop. I already know how I would do it and make it work in my small shop. Maybe I am unique, but if not, I really hope Shopsmith can figure this out because I don't think I am the only one that feels this way. I am a woodworker first and foremost, and secondly I am a Shopsmith equipment owner (priority in that order). When the latter starts to interfere with the former, I will remedy this situation as I described so that nothing interferes with my ability to create, build and make sawdust. End of Story.
edma194
We have seen prices for power tools fall for many years. Largely overseas manufacturing has produced lower prices, as it did across many industries, along with brand oriented marketing, and economic changes that created lots of construction, home remodeling. Shopsmiths haven't kept pace with those reductions in price over the years because they don't make disposable tools. The entry price for new Shopsmiths had long been high in comparison to the individual tools for each of it's functions. You can get a decent table saw or drill press or lathe for the initial price of a machine. That you can get all three of those functions and more for the same price is irrelevant, there aren't really equivalent single machines to a Shopsmith so their sales have been nothing like those for individual tools from DeWalt, Porter-Cable, or any number of other businesses with barely distinguishable products. Products that are mostly disposable at the lower end of the price range.
There really isn't an equivalent company to Shopsmith making similar tools that has endured over time. The price of a Shopsmith is limited by low demand and a high entry price. Now I may be wrong about this, but I don't think any Shopsmith customers like the high price of the machines, accessories, parts or consumables. We can conduct a poll if necessary to clear that up, but I think I'm ok making that assumption. I don't know how they have established prices in the past, or how they will do so in the future, but we are all probably in the same boat here, we either keep buying from them or turn elsewhere. This boat will either remain afloat of sink, and there's little more we can do about that other than continuing to represent the quality and value of the tool system. I always remember the quote from Clarence Darrow - "Lost causes are the only one worth fighting for". He was a fool. Plenty of causes are worth fighting for, fighting for the lost ones is just practice.
RFGuy
Ed,
Thanks. So, I understand, are you saying that the quality of a Mark V/7 and/or its accessories are on par with Powermatic, Jet, Grizzly, Laguna, etc.? I would agree that I would take my Mark V any day compared to a portable contractor TS, but in terms of quality I don't see my Mark V as being on the same level of build quality that I have seen with traditional woodworking machinery companies. Having looked at them up close in person. In terms of cost, I could get Jet or Grizzly separates of better quality than my Mark V for the cost of a new Mark 7. I don't think Shopsmith quality is what it once was, but maybe I am the only one that has this perception.
adrianpglover
For myself, I started woodworking with a loaned MKV 500 for about a year, then purchased a decent, but cheaply imported Grizzly cabinet base TS. Over the following 5 or so years I added an '80s Craftsman bandsaw that shook like crazy but was given to me, a cheap craisglist Craftsman benchtop drill press, a '60s RAS from my uncle, and other tools. When I got the MK7, as a present from my wife because, as she said, "you'll never buy it for yourself", I then sold my drill press, and RAS. I later replaced the bandsaw with the SS bandsaw, as I wanted to reduce the footprint (and frustration) with the replacement. On the quality side of things, I'd say that the MK7 came with mostly similar quality as my TS, but the SS planer didn't as the packaging was horrible for the weight of the tool. The packaging completely missed on keeping the tool from moving around and it came with the table all kinds of out of sync and the box was all busted up. What helped with the MK7 is that it came on a pallet. The planer came in a box delivered by either FedEx or UPS, and I think they moved it around some by rolling the box. Also, I've had other quality issues with the aluminum castings, which make for a lighter weight tool, giving way, whether it be a crack on the tool rest arm, a set screw in the way tube tie bar that holds the way tube in place stripping threads under light pressure, etc. I understand the original design was for aluminum on it, but I think using steel or some alloy would make for a higher quality product.
What I don't understand about SS pricing, SPT pricing. By purchasing one instead of some other brand's benchtop version (to get past the footprint discussion), you're buying everything on the other brand's version, but without the motor, yet the price is soooo much higher. I do get it that SS doesn't have much of a market share, but if they want to become competetive, then they need to make it look like you can have a high entry price into the system, but then the accessories that give you more abilities need to be priced at a lower point than equivalent models from other brands. Maybe they want to compare themselves to higher end brands. If so, they need to make sure their products have the specs to compare as well. It just seems like they've got what was competitive in the late '70s or early '80s, and trying to say it's competitive on specs in the 2020s as well.
Back to the main topic...the website could still use quite a bit of work. The current status of it make this seem more like a small organization with a volunteer workforce like a church, scout troop, or the like, decided it was good enough for a launch.
DLB
adrianpglover wrote
I know this data is rather old (~19 years ago), but 950k or even 1M does seem a bit low considering their sales figures from 2005.
https://last10k.com/sec-filings/ssmh According to the filing, net sales were at $13.359M for the year. This again is for the prior incarnation of the company, before RLF Shop, but I don't think the company has decreased by that much, unless during the reorg they sold off a large portion of their assets and mfg and are currently only the customer facing portion of the company.
2005 was still a pretty good time at Shopsmith Inc., which went bankrupt in 2009 and reorganized as RLF. For example, I've seen loads of used "50th Anniversary" Mark V's on the market, and they took some liberty with that labeling but most seem to be from 2003 to 2005. I'd say I've seen far more used MV's from that small time span than I have seen MV and M7 combined from 2005 to present. Which suggests that some point in time saw a major drop off in Mark production. That's in addition to the closing of retail stores, eliminating numerous products, etc. that have occurred mostly after the transition. My perception of RLF is that their focus has been on the existing customer base: upgrades, replacements, parts, accessories, consumables, etc., so not a company likely to thrive and expand but nothing in that suggests an approach that cannot be successful. (Depending on how one measures success.)
Note - IIUC M7 and PP were both introduced to the market in the RLF era, so that is two major new products. But to me the timing suggests that they were developed primarily by Shopsmith Inc.
- David
adrianpglover
I had seen it mentioned that one of the driving factors of the bankruptcy was the development of the PP itself. I don't have any sources for this though. I probably read it here on these forums.
RFGuy
adrianpglover wrote
What I don't understand about SS pricing, SPT pricing. By purchasing one instead of some other brand's benchtop version (to get past the footprint discussion), you're buying everything on the other brand's version, but without the motor, yet the price is soooo much higher. I do get it that SS doesn't have much of a market share, but if they want to become competetive, then they need to make it look like you can have a high entry price into the system, but then the accessories that give you more abilities need to be priced at a lower point than equivalent models from other brands. Maybe they want to compare themselves to higher end brands. If so, they need to make sure their products have the specs to compare as well. It just seems like they've got what was competitive in the late '70s or early '80s, and trying to say it's competitive on specs in the 2020s as well.
Adrian,
Exactly. I couldn't agree more. Yes, if it was a well organized and updated system with a high initial cost for the base platform and high quality then I could understand, but ONLY if the SPT's and accessories were reasonable in cost. The fact that the SPT's (no motor) are often as expensive or more expensive than good quality standalone tools (with expensive motors) from other brands is unfathomable to me. :confused: Difficult to justify the price for performance of Shopsmith equipment compared to what is readily available in the market today. I was naive and in the dark on competing tool brands for years because I considered myself a Shopsmith guy, but when I started to seriously look into other brands I started to wake up. Not saying Shopsmith isn't good quality, because generally it is, but most of the competition is also good quality these days but cheaper. What you do get with Shopsmith is a system, albeit a shrinking system these days as they end of life particular SPT's. :(
Yeah, I had all of the same problems as you describe with Shopsmith packing and shipping on a few orders. They seem to be clueless and will throw a heavy item in with a single piece of paper as "padding". Often putting more delicate items from the order in the same box and expect Fedex to gently deliver it to your door. Hah!!! :rolleyes:
adrianpglover
What got me about the planer box is that it had pictures of the planer on the outside, so it was the box they invented it to ship in, but the internal material looked like it was packed as if you were to delicately place it on a store shelf, and not be handed off to a shipper. I always view what happens to something you ship the same as that '60s Samsonite commercial where they placed some bananas inside a suitcase and put it in a cage with a gorilla or ape.
algale
Even in the relatively short period of time I have been a Shopsmith customer (14 years) the quality of the internal packing on shipments has gotten noticeably worse.
JPG
algale wrote
Even in the relatively short period of time I have been a Shopsmith customer (14 years) the quality of the internal packing on shipments has gotten noticeably worse.
Not a SS only phenomenon.
RFGuy
I agree many companies ship delicate items these days in ways that will ensure damage. Amazon is a prime example (pun intended). It has been a while since I purchased my Shopsmith gear, but what I remember was the Mark V was packaged well and I think there are pics around the internet showing how they are packed. It came by freight, which honestly is often safer than a service like Fedex. Most freight drivers are really careful and do their best getting each item to their destination unharmed, provided they are properly secure on a pallet or have a suitable sturdy box construction. What I seem to remember for the SPT's is they came in boxes and had foam inserts around them - you know the expandable foam stuff. No way they were going to move around and lots of cushion to protect from exterior box damage. Perhaps someone else can confirm this is how they received theirs as well in the distant past? Switching to an open box construction, no padding, for items like the planer or UTR is just crazy IMHO. ONLY explanation I can come up with is cost cutting at Shopsmith and just rolling the dice each time they ship hoping for no damage claims.
adrianpglover
From what I remember, when the planer came in the box had a hole in it and was partially crushed. Inside the box, it wasn't just empty space, but it wasn't well packed either. There were the hardboard corner braces running up the vertical corners, and some kind of brown paper padding - more than just the wrinkled packing paper that Amazon uses, but clearly not enough to keep a ~45 lbs object centered in the packaging when rolling the box over to move it onto and off of shelves/conveyors. I don't remember there being any kind of form fitting molded cardboard, styrofoam, or even the expanding foam in a bag type of packing material in the box. Since the MK7 had come in in such a wonderful condition on the pallet, already setup to start cutting wood with the blade mounted and everything, I started testing out the planer right away and didn't realize for a while that I needed to align/adjust it and make sure it was all working before going further.
RFGuy
adrianpglover wrote
From what I remember, when the planer came in the box had a hole in it and was partially crushed. Inside the box, it wasn't just empty space, but it wasn't well packed either. There were the hardboard corner braces running up the vertical corners, and some kind of brown paper padding - more than just the wrinkled packing paper that Amazon uses, but clearly not enough to keep a ~45 lbs object centered in the packaging when rolling the box over to move it onto and off of shelves/conveyors. I don't remember there being any kind of form fitting molded cardboard, styrofoam, or even the expanding foam in a bag type of packing material in the box. Since the MK7 had come in in such a wonderful condition on the pallet, already setup to start cutting wood with the blade mounted and everything, I started testing out the planer right away and didn't realize for a while that I needed to align/adjust it and make sure it was all working before going further.
Adrian,
Yeah, this is my point, there should have been. It has been about 2 decades since I received my SPT's and Mark V, but that is what I remember for my Mark V mounted planer. It came in a sturdy carboard box but with spray foam inside and around it. I couldn't imagine receiving an item like that planer in any kind of box that isn't well packed and protected. More recently though, my UTR was also packed poorly similar to your planer. I have pics around here that I can post. It was just a bunch of loose parts thrown in a box with a sheet of packing paper. It is sooo heavy that when Fedex threw the package around, the long arm section of it flew out one end of the package. What does Fedex do? Push it back in, tape it up and deliver it to me. I had so many missing parts and it took multiple contacts with customer service and failed attempts to get me the correct parts that were missing. I am sure they filed it on an insurance claim with Fedex, but the error was Shopsmith for thinking they could ship such a heavy item as a UTR inside of an open box, i.e. no padding or protection inside.
RFGuy
So, in 2019 this is how my UTR (lathe universal tool rest) arrived. Those of you who know the UTR and its components can try to spot what components are missing. Think of it like the inverse of Where's Waldo? 😉 The first pic shows ALL that I received on my initial shipment. It took several follow-up shipments, NOT one, to get all of the parts from Shopsmith AND an engineer support phone call because they didn't send a matched Support Base and Top Support (have to be machined together). A LOT of hassle over such a simple accessory to order and SIGNIFICANT delay in getting a working UTR eventually. Fedex lost the parts that went flying out of the original shipment because there was no padding in the box. This box was also too low of a grade, i.e. thin and flimsy carboard. You can see all of the box damage and how they taped it back up. It is Fedex's fault for taping the box back up like nothing had happened, but it was Shopsmith's fault for attempting to ship such a heavy item as loose parts flailing around inside of a carboard box with NO packing protection inside. In recent years, this is the Shopsmith that I see. I try not to be negative on this forum, but who wouldn't be frustrated with this kind of customer experience???
Spoiler: UTR parts diagram below for anyone that wants to compare what actually came in my shipment to what it is supposed to have.
DLB
dusty wrote
My last purchase of an item that required significant packaging was the DC3300 upgrade kit. It came well protected; wrapped in a very heavy paper cardboard wrap. No complaints here. Shopsmith did not cut corners on this shipment.
DLB received a DC kit at about the same time. Hope he comments on this as well.
643.jpg723.jpg
Yes, My DC-6K kit was well packaged. As discussed in another thread, mine had some severe air leaks and I had to return it for rework, so my packaging was used 3 times. I also recently bought a UTR and it was either packaged much better than RF Guy's or did not experience the same rough handling. I figured it was too heavy to toss around. ;) Actually I think it was in a much better box, one of those heavy-duty tri-wall cardboard types. I'll see if I still have the box to confirm after it warms up a bit.
- David
DLB
RFGuy wrote
So, in 2019 this is how my UTR (lathe universal tool rest) arrived. Those of you who know the UTR and its components can try to spot what components are missing. Think of it like the inverse of Where's Waldo? ;)
Wow! I think I got it, but no spoilers. Yeah, I've actually received things a couple of times (not SS that I recall) where the carrier had put the demolished box inside a new box with a new shipping label. Missing numerous components. And once I was expecting some shock absorbers from Amazon, the truck pulled into my driveway but the driver never got our and drove away after a while. I received a refund that noted shipping damage and had to reorder.
- David
RFGuy
DLB wrote
I also recently bought a UTR and it was either packaged much better than RF Guy's or did not experience the same rough handling. I figured it was too heavy to toss around. ;) Actually I think it was in a much better box, one of those heavy-duty tri-wall cardboard types. I'll see if I still have the box to confirm after it warms up a bit.
- David
David,
Thanks. The silver lining, I guess, is Shopsmith learned their lesson, at least on shipping a UTR, from my bad, bad experience. The UTR was the most egregious shipping problem that I had from them, but I had a few others of lesser severity but still annoying and component damaging. That was back when I was accumulating the last of Shopsmith accessories that I wanted, in case they went out of business. By the way, that box label for my UTR shows a 29lbs edge crust test rating. I don't really know cardboard box ratings and the Shopsmith website doesn't list the total weight of the UTR, but I am guessing due to the construction of that particular box that it was underdesigned to ship an item like a UTR. Would be interesting to know the box label on the bottom of your box, i.e. what it's edge crush test rating is for comparison. I'll bet you received a higher quality ($$) box than I received my UTR in.
