adrianpglover
I started my woodworking hobby with a borrowed Mark V for about a year (back in 2012 to build nursery furniture for my first kid), went to other tools, and eventually my wife got me a Mark 7 + planer in early 2020 (pre-covid).
Since getting my Mark 7, I have noticed a slow but steady decline in the number of products, mainly accessories and SPTs, offered by Shopsmith. I think the first thing I noticed go away was the molder head and profile blades, then the shaper bit options were greatly reduced. I think after that there was a SPT that was removed from the lineup, but can't put a finger on what it was. And now, we have the removal of the planer from the website.
Also, during this same time period (1/1/2020 - 11/29/2023), I have seen the introduction of a new control panel for the Mark 7 with, as I understand it, no real new features, only a new HMI (human-machine interface). So a mostly minor update to one product, but no other real new products being offered. They also offered a few different ways of packaging currently shipping machines, but I see that as a marketing/market offering thing more than actual new engineering.
I'm an electrical design engineer who helps to develop new and innovative technologies for a company who most people think still make computers, is rather old, is referred to by three letters, and is associated with the color blue (hopefully that spells it out pretty well without violating company policies about making my post be associated with the company name, because I definitely don't speak for the company). I have seen a handful of posts on here stating that most of the customers of SS are older and set in their ways. I'm 40, so not necessarily older, but not exactly young anymore, so take this as you will. I state all of this to give as much background into my thinking as I can.
It just seems to me that over the last few years there has been more of a shrinking of the product offerings with only minor updates to existing products. I even think that some of those product updates, like the touch screen, were likely driven by the obsolescence of components that were integral to the old interface, or were likely designed by/through/with a third party. From the product offering side I don't see a lot of new and innovative products coming down the line, only a company who is just trying to produce and sell the same product that they have been making for the past decade+. In the field I work in, if you stagnate on your new offerings, you die. I know this isn't quite true for the power tool market, but it seems to me like SS is definitely in decline.
So, in the end, should we be worried about the future of the company? Hopefully the new owner can get some new engineering in the company and come out with some cool, new offerings at decent prices for us. It also would be nice to see most of the products being offered through Woodcraft and Rockler. I wouldn't go as far as having them stocked in the stores, but listed on their sites would go a long way. I think this makes more sense than being listed on Amazon, but that's just me.
edma194
Of course we should be worried about the future of the company. We should have been worried for at least 25 years now because the company hasn't been growing or making a profit. Changes are now coming out hastily, the new website is incomplete and will take a while to fix, at the same time they didn't maintain the old website to use while the new one has problems, the new PowerPro Gen 2 controller has issues, and I would expect to see more old products fall away from lack of sales. However, with a new owner there's the chance that things will get better. The old owners should be commended for keeping the company going out of loyalty to the product and it's customers without profits, but it's still better to see some changes rushed out than no change at all which would undoubtedly lead to eventual dissolution.
bainin
I wouldn't worry too much. If the SS line finally goes the way of the dodo and support becomes non-existent, you may be forced to
invest in separate tools and use the SS for some dedicated purpose.
Afterall-what can you do about it anyway ? You can pre-empt such an outcome by stocking up on expected maintenance parts, or go out and start purchasing separate tools . Maintenance parts I likely will stock some to ensure longevity of my current tools (belts etc), outright giving up and investing in new tools- I'm inclined to wait and see what happens.
PS- I don't think of Big Blue as a computer company :) That ship sailed long ago !
b
JPG
Whatsa "main frame"?
dusty
Go look at the number of Social Media (FB) viewers. That is now an audience that is more aware of Shopsmith than before. It is that expanded audience that keeps me from worrying. That audience is not a bunch of oldies trying to figure out who might use their Shopsmith if it was willed to one of them.
algale
I hope they are around for many more years but I'd only worry about the company's longevity if I were an investor or owned a Power Pro. For everything else there is a nearly inexhaustible supply of used machines and used parts out there being sold on the secondary market (ebay, craigslist, etc) many of which are in new or near new condition. Parts for the Power Pro and parts specific to the double-tilt mechanism of the Mark 7 would be much more difficult to source because fewer units have been sold and don't pop up as often on the reseller market.
Most consumables, maybe all, are available in compatible sizes from other sources.
CreekWood
I clearly remember when Big Blue sold long-haul network gear. Had a full inventory awaiting deployment when they dropped the product line. The company with a bridge logo offered us a generous buy-back. My point is that Blue still exists, but with different products.
JPG
My observation re 'shrinking' SS products has to do with parts no longer in 'new' production. This shrinking is of concern because 'historically' (and recent comments) SS has always had replacement parts for the M5 and up and that WAS a major advantage albeit $ to do. I think most owners of older models would be willing to pay a premium price for new direct replacement parts.
IBM has shifted to a software developer(and we all know from early PC days the money is in hardware sic.) The wheel of fortune has come full circle?
RFGuy
Adrian,
As a fellow electrical engineer, with an analytical mindset, I agree with and share in the concerns that you raise on this thread. Going to post and share here to hopefully alleviate some of your concerns. Let me play the optimist, yes I know a role some on the forum don't see often enough from me. ;) I won't go through the history, but I have seen Russ, Scott (on his videos) and others talk about the long history of Shopsmith, Magna, Magna Engineering, Yuba, etc., etc. many times and it is interesting, but I will get it wrong if I try to recount it here myself. My point being that Shopsmith has reinvented itself over and over during the past 75+ years. Let's be honest, for ANY company to be alive and still kicking in the United States, in of all things manufacturing, is a testament to perseverance and should be applauded. I started my woodworking journey as a teenager helping my Dad to build his 12'x18' woodshop from the ground-up. We constructed everything...about the only thing we didn't do is mix concrete ourselves, i.e. we had it delivered. Next we outfitted the shop with woodworking tools my Dad could afford like a Sears Craftsman TS (hated that thing), cheap bandsaw, cheap drill press, etc. Eventually he learned of Shopsmith and we visited a brick & mortar Shopsmith store and bought one to sideline that Craftsman TS. Most of my early woodworking in my Dad's shop was on that 510 that he bought. Then I graduate, go off to college, get a job and buy my own 510. In the intervening two decades I used this 510 at a hobbyist level doing several projects like building a crib for my 1st born, dining set and many more projects. Work would often intrude into my woodworking, but I am still using the same 510 (520 now) that I purchased new with nothing more than light maintenance required. The only difference between us is perhaps how much you are using your Mark 7 and that you have a Mark 7 vs. my 520. The weak link in your system is the PP headstock IMHO. IF you have concerns about maintaining your investment, I might suggest you have replacement parts on hand or even a mechanical headstock as a backup. With this, I expect you could continue woodworking for a long time into the future if/when Shopsmith should cease operations (hopefully that won't happen). I haven't kept up with the full history on Shopsmith, but I know there have been multiple bankruptcy scares over the years. The last one, I believe was a few years ago. That is when I went ahead, out of fear, and purchased the last few accessories, maintenance parts, etc. that I wanted to have on hand. Did I need to do that? Only time will tell. It has now been a few years since that last company scare and they are still in business, albeit with a new owner, which I take as a positive sign because they are still alive. Do I regret purchasing what I did a few years ago? Absolutely not. IF you want insurance to hedge a potential future timeline, then I suggest you consider allocating a small amount of funds to securing whatever components you deem mission critical so that you can continue your woodworking journey on Shopsmith equipment unimpeded. I don't advocate anyone to live in fear, so this is only an insurance option I am proposing. Best of luck and enjoy your Mark 7!
I always forget that many SPT's and standalone tools have been obsoleted by Shopsmith over time. I really thought the Shopsmith planer would have lasted and was dismayed to see it leave the website, but given its price to performance quotient I guess I can understand. It still stings and now I need to consider what, if any, replacement parts to procure for it in my inventory. Point though is Shopsmith has pruned products from their inventory for decades, but this shouldn't be a concern for company longevity because they have been doing this for decades, but it is an annoyance. :(
chapmanruss
As many of you know or may have guessed my love for Shopsmith Tools lies a lot in not only using them but restoring them. I have, to date, restored 24 Model 10's. Why is this relevant? It shows that even Shopsmith tools made more than 70 years ago can be kept in good running condition. With only 2 parts from the Model 10's still in use today in the Marks all other parts except common hardware have to be found used. There is a large supply of parts available for the old Model 10E's and 10ER's to keep them running as some tools sacrifice themselves to keep others going. With the number of Mark 5/V's sold over the years the same would be true if the company was to close.
As for SPT's that have been discontinued that has been, I believe, driven by lack of sales or in the case of the Scroll Saw a new option being available. For the Molder Knives and Shaper Cutters, they had been coming from other makers (available through other outlets) and were not a Shopsmith exclusive item.
Right now, my only concern is will the Smart Motors take over the conventional Headstocks. :D
RFGuy
chapmanruss wrote
I have, to date, restored 24 Model 10's.
Russ,
I love the restoration pictures you have shown before on the forum. They are works of art IMHO, but also highly functional. Really would like to get my hands on one of them someday. I have an affinity for older (vintage) style tools that are well designed and the Model 10 is definitely one of those in my book. :)
DLB
RFGuy wrote
...The weak link in your system is the PP headstock IMHO. IF you have concerns about maintaining your investment, I might suggest you have replacement parts on hand or even a mechanical headstock as a backup...
From a maintainability and longevity perspective, the PowerPro is a concern. There is a lot that can go wrong with that supply chain, Shopsmith is only one link. And from my perspective, not the weakest link. I am a fan and will stick with PowerPro as long as it remains viable, but it ain't for everybody. If it becomes non-viable, I'll simply go back to the conventional headstock. Complete headstocks, parts to downgrade a PowerPro, and complete Marks are all readily available and I don't see this changing in my lifetime.
My preferred backup for those of us that have the space: I had a Power Station, it was adequate but I'm not a huge fan. I cut a conventional 520 down to a mini that I use as a preferred alternative to the Power Station. It's quieter, has more power, better speed range, will run a Jointer, etc. Only downside is a slightly larger footprint, but it can also store a second SPT. Comes with a complete set of extra tables to expand the table system of the M7. And has a complete fully functional headstock for those times when a PowerPro is down. If you don't want or need the extra tables you can typically do this for less money than a Power Station.
- David
RFGuy
DLB wrote
From a maintainability and longevity perspective, the PowerPro is a concern. There is a lot that can go wrong with that supply chain, Shopsmith is only one link. And from my perspective, not the weakest link. I am a fan and will stick with PowerPro as long as it remains viable, but it ain't for everybody. If it becomes non-viable, I'll simply go back to the conventional headstock. Complete headstocks, parts to downgrade a PowerPro, and complete Marks are all readily available and I don't see this changing in my lifetime.
David,
Just to be clear, I wasn't saying Shopsmith was the weak link. I was saying should something happen to Shopsmith as a company, a PP is a weak link in a Shopsmith gear shop, i.e. the rest of the machine is more robust and not needing repair/replacement compared to the PP headstock. There are significantly fewer PP's on the street than conventional headstocks. Repairs of a conventional headstock will be more accessible and replacement parts more readily available as compared to the PP. This is exacerbated by Shopsmith having a full custom implementation of the StriaTech DVR motor done buy TeknaTool, so it isn't like you can easily shoehorn in replacement parts from the rest of the DVR motor marketplace. Unless one is willing and ready to get out their soldering iron, repairs of PP's in a post (apocalyptic) Shopsmith world will be much more difficult for PP owners compared to conventional headstock owners. At least, this is how I see it. Even if new service parts dry up for the conventional headstock, there will always be more used inventory that can be cannibalized for spare parts. Far fewer PP's out there to cannibalize is my point.
My statements are not meant to takeaway from the PP being higher performing, but like a high end sports car it can be hard to get parts and sometimes they can be fussy. :D
adrianpglover
Honestly, I'm not so concerned about the ability to keep my current MK7 running, but rather that SS is discontinuing various accessories that I thought would be interesting to have, but I don't have a use for at the moment or don't want to spend the money on it just yet. For instance, when I first got the MK7, within a few months most of the shaper bits went on clearance. I know this is due to them not selling as well now that there are so many options for router bits. Around the same time, they discontinued the molder head and cutters. I know the jig saw went away a long time ago, but I'm rather surprised that the replacement - namely the scroll saw - wasn't a mark mounted accessory but just a product from a different vendor. I am glad that I picked up the planer before it went off the website. I'm not concerned about availability of parts for it as the main part would be blades, for which there are other sources currently. If my power pro were to give up the ghost, then I'd just get a used MK5 head on craigslist and keep going.
Basically, I had been looking at this as a system where I had gotten a great tool, and could expand it further in the future. However, it looks like the longer I go from the initial purchase, the fewer expansion options I will have. If nothing else, I can always just stick to what is being sold through Rockler/Woodcraft, but for many tools that I don't use often, I like the compactness of the SS system.
RFGuy
Adrian,
Thanks for the clarification and that makes sense. Yeah, this is why during the last bankruptcy scare a few years ago I went ahead and bought some extras like additional floating tables, UTR, speed reducer, etc. Because you never know when the company will breathe its last breath...though I hope it continues to survive. Also, why I sometimes fall into the complainer category on this forum because I wish they'd offer more SPT's and accessories than they do. I too see it as an ecosystem and when you have all of the components you need for it and they are working well, nothing is better. When parts get removed from that ecosystem and discontinued then you suffer. Being partially on the Festool ecosystem now, I have an even greater appreciation for this kind of system or ecosystem concept. I am only limited by my bank account when it comes to the Festool system and the more I acquire from them the more productive I am on their system. I have most everything I can get on the Shopsmith ecosytem, but I am only operating at maybe 70% capability because the SPT's haven't been refreshed and don't offer the capability than I need/want. IF Shopsmith could address this, I think they would have many more customers than just me, who chooses to publicly mention this deficiency in hopes they might address it.
chapmanruss
adrianpglover,
As I said in my previous post the used market will go on. This already applies to those discontinued items you have been interested in. I like the Jig Saw and not too long ago bought a second used one to have in case my other one breaks to the point I cannot use it. Right now, it sits on the shelf although purchased on the used market, "new in box" waiting for its turn. I do have some extra Jig Saw parts too. The Shopsmith Scroll Saw can be found used in either the Mark Mount or free standing with motor in both the gray or teal models. I have the gray Mark Mount Scroll Saw with the later table and the Blade Mount upgrade. It sits on a Power Station for use which I prefer rather than using mounted on a Mark.
Shaper Cutters and the Moulding Head and Knives can be found from other manufacturers that will fit the Shopsmith's Arbors/Spindles. The last version of the Molder Head Knives were coming from a different company and probably the Head itself. That Molder Head was the only one that required an arbor to use. Prior to that all Shopsmith/Magna Molder Heads could be attached directly to the Quill's Spindle. The last version of the Molder Knives do not fit prior Molder Head versions.
It may not be in Shopsmith's best interest, due to cost considerations, to resell items to use on their tools from other companies. It could be helpful if Shopsmith would market the fact that these items from other companies can be used on a Shopsmith showing that not everything used on a Shopsmith tool has to be a Shopsmith brand item.
Sorry to Shopsmith for this but all my Mark's and SPT's have either been inherited of purchased used. I have spent several thousand dollars buying parts, accessories, consumables and upgrades from Shopsmith. Most notably upgrading my Mark V to a Mark 7 with the DIY Power Pro, Double Tilt and other upgrades. Supporting the existing Shopsmith users is a big part of their business.
Jwhitaker
I’m curious if SS is going to pivot to sponsoring some “influencers” out there to feature their product. At a minimum it would get some newer videos out there for younger folks to see and maybe get interested in. Everyone who has seen the Mk5 510 in my garage has never seen one before. We’re all under 40, so the exposure just isn’t there. It would also be nice to have some new how-to videos that weren’t filmed on a potato.
adrianpglover
Watching mgr episode on the biscuit jointer accessory and realized that it's not being sold now either.
UncleOlaf
This thread has become a LOT more relevant in the past week. The SS website is confused again and SS is back in the news with people wondering if it going to stay alive. I think the next generation is going to ensure that it does. All the YouTube channels where the influencers have a 4000 square foot shop, with cabinet saws and planers and drum sanders and a 4000 horsepower dust collection system that packages waste into pellets for their Traeger pellet grills… sorry, I get carried away. Those setups are totally unrealistic for newbies. The kids are starting to realize that they need to start small and learn to walk before running and manage their space, time, and cash, to do some cools stuff with limited resources.
I bought a Greenie (circa 1954), a week ago, for $50. Jointer, scroll saw, all the lathe parts - sans chisels, table saw, but no disk sander. I spent the week polishing the ways, cleaning and verifying that the original motor headstock was in good running order, cleaning and polishing the tables and jointer, then waxing all working surfaces. It is not a complete overhaul, refurbished restoration, just a working Mark 5. It needed a new power cord, but it fired right up and I made sawdust in less than a week of evening work..
I put it in a neighborhood yard sale, this past weekend and had a HUGE response, mostly by kids (under 40). This is California, where we have two major things going for us: sunshine and uh… sunshine. We have no garage space in which to work - if we have garages. But that’s the beauty of the Mark 5. It fits in the space of a bike - OK a full Hog. But it rolls out onto the driveway and back, at the end of the day. With a good cover, you can even leave it out from Friday to Sunday, if it’s behind a fence. The point is, two guys got in a bidding war and I sold it for $400, unpainted, without the scroll saw or jointer!
The neighbor who lost the bidding war saw the 70s Mark V and its nephew, an 80s Mark V, and we now have a project to restore them both, along with another Greenie that I rescued from its pile of rust near Pismo Beach. We’ve been neighbors for 10 years and I didn’t know his name until he saw the Shopsmith. He didn’t think he could outfit a wood shop without selling his cars to make space in his garage.With a new generation that realizes the importance of compact tools that do a lot and a new found sense of DIY, I think that Shopsmith is going to stay around.
My Greenie is older than I am. It’s getting harder to find good tools that are older than me. I’m going to keep using the ones I have. At the same time, there’s nothing like a project and knowledge to share with new people, to make us feel young again.
adrianpglover
UncleOlaf wrote
The SS website is confused again and SS is back in the news with people wondering if it going to stay alive.
What news? I jumped over to google news and searched both for shopsmith and rlf brands and came up with only obituaries or articles not talking about shopsmith at all. Got a link?
