adrianpglover
How do I go about getting my headstock to slide easier along the way tubes? I've tried both waxing and rotating the tubes, but I don't see much of any improvement with it. I'll get it to the point where it will slide pretty easily through some of the distance, but then it will hit a section with increased resistance. As far as I can tell there are no nicks or warping in the shape of my way tubes. Just watching some of Michael Young's videos and it takes me quite a bit more to get my setup changed over from one mode to another due to needing to brace myself against the tool to move the headstock.
DLB
This is like Jeopardy, all answers are in the form of questions... I'm just shot-gunning some starting points. The main possibilities here are that the way tubes are not parallel and/or one wedge lock is binding. The idea of rotating a way tube is that there is no perfect tube and you are trying to make the in-tolerance curves parallel. I've never tried to measure this parameter, but one could measure the inside or outside tube spacing to see how parallel they are. I don't know the tolerance, but if your machine is dragging perhaps that would imply one.
Your machine is very new from my perspective, and we are informed that sometime recently the company changed the Bench and Way Tubes material and construction to thin walled stainless steel. I have zero experience with the new tubes, so first question is do you know if your way tubes are thin walled stainless? If you don't know, my first suggestion: move the headstock to one end of the machine and partially raise the other; loosen the two setscrews on the top of the DT Base Arm and remove the Arm. 1) measure the wall thickness, which likely matches a standard sheet metal thickness. 2) Look for the seam on the inside of the tubes, in most cases they would be "clocked" the same as each other and likely in the 6 or 12 o'clock position. (Note - there could be anti-crush inserts in the tube making this more difficult, but as far as I know at present these are only found in the thin walled bench tubes.)
Does the carriage move easily throughout its range? (Test both with the headstock locked and unlocked.)
Does the headstock move more easily if the carriage is unlocked? Does the headstock move more easily if you further loosen its lock (try loosening it to its maximum)?
You might try removing the headstock and waxing the way tube bores. If that helps at all, I would repeat for the carriage.
- David
adrianpglover
Thank you for the detailed response. I had not realized that there was a change in the tubes at all, so I'll go check that.
I have rotated the tubes, trying to find the sweet spot. I thought the theory in this was more that the tubes may be straight, but somewhat out of round and you were trying to get the headstock to slide on more rounded part of it.
For the most part, the carriage does slide smoothly, though sometimes with the table on it I have some difficulty. I haven't paid attention to if this is more so from me pushing off center or if it's just getting stuck more easily with the table locked on it.
I've tried unlocking the headstock to maximum, and then sliding the lock forward and back to make sure the wedges are freed up, and this doesn't really change the behavior.
I think I'll check the tube thickness and then reclock them at either 6 or 12 to start over on that part of it.
edma194
adrianpglover wrote
I thought the theory in this was more that the tubes may be straight, but somewhat out of round and you were trying to get the headstock to slide on more rounded part of it.
I think it's more likely the tubes are not straight and the distance between them at any one point varies. By rotating you are trying to align two curved tubes so the distance between them is more consistent across the length. IOW () is a problem, you want )).
JPG
OR (( and not )(. ;)
DLB
adrianpglover wrote
I've tried unlocking the headstock to maximum, and then sliding the lock forward and back to make sure the wedges are freed up, and this doesn't really change the behavior.
There is variation in wedge lock preset. When I unlock my headstock to maximum, the lock assembly won't move in and out because both wedges are fully retracted (outboard, away from the way tubes) into the housing. The 'other' way to reach 'maximum' is for the front side lock (wedge) to meet the lock handle and act like a jam nut. In that case, the wedges are less retracted allowing the assembly to rattle in and out. Mine will make just over 3-1/2 turns from locked to fully unlocked. That's way more than necessary for normal use, so I'm not suggesting that this is your problem, only that it is a variable to consider.
- David
SAFECRACKER5947
To DLB. David : I just purchased my 2nd Mark VII at an auction. After comparing how the wedge lock functions I have concluded that it is stuck. Only on the "front" operators side. I've turned the lock handle to the half-way position where it should wiggle in and out and it doesn't wiggle. I can see the backside wedge move. Oil and substantial "tapping" (both sides) hasn't freed it up. Suggestions?
Ernie
DLB
SAFECRACKER5947 wrote
To DLB. David : I just purchased my 2nd Mark VII at an auction. After comparing how the wedge lock functions I have concluded that it is stuck. Only on the "front" operators side. I've turned the lock handle to the half-way position where it should wiggle in and out and it doesn't wiggle. I can see the backside wedge move. Oil and substantial "tapping" (both sides) hasn't freed it up. Suggestions?
Ernie
Welcome to the forum! For clarification, sometimes the term 'Mark VII' gets confused with 'Mark 7.' Mark VII refers to a 1960's production design while Mark 7 is the current production variant of the Mark 5/V series. I've never owned a Mark VII and don't know if these have the same/similar wedge lock design. The modern Mark 7 headstock has essentially the same wedge lock setup as the Mark 5/V, any technical description I provide is for the Mark 5/V/7 series and may not be consistent with Mark VII. Please clarify if your machine is a 1960's Mark VII as opposed to a third millennium Mark 7 (PowerPro).
Next, it would be good to know whether the wedge is stuck in the locked, unlocked, or somewhere in between position. And whether the headstock will slide on the way tubes when you unlock it. On a Mark 5/V/7 headstock the wedges will protrude noticeably (~1/8" - 3/16") when fully unlocked. When fully locked, the wedges will be slightly inboard from the outer part of their headstock bore, I'd say something around 1/16" or less. Again, if yours is a Mark VII this description could be off.
Here is a thread on another stuck lock: (
https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=23940).
- David
JPG
The Mark VII wedge locks operate similarly to the current Mark V 5xx/7 vintage. Only difference from a Mark 5/ V 500 is the wing nut is replaced by the lever.
edflorence
adrianpglover wrote
How do I go about getting my headstock to slide easier along the way tubes? I've tried both waxing and rotating the tubes, but I don't see much of any improvement with it. I'll get it to the point where it will slide pretty easily through some of the distance, but then it will hit a section with increased resistance.
Adrian;
I have a similar, though not identical, state of affairs on my old 500. If I unlock the headstock but don't unlock the carriage, it is difficult to impossible to get the headstock to move. Once I unlock the carriage, the headstock moves freely along the full length of the tubes. I don't need to move the carriage at all, just unlock it. Unlike your situation, however, I do not find any particular location along the tubes of increased resistance. Have you tried unlocking the carriage and headstock at the same time to see if the headstock still won't move freely? Might be worth a shot.
adrianpglover
edflorence wrote
Have you tried unlocking the carriage and headstock at the same time to see if the headstock still won't move freely? Might be worth a shot.
No, I haven't tried that yet, but that's a very good idea to look out for. For now, the mark is pushed out of the way. This week is VBS and then I won't be on any woodworking project for a while. Picking up an old truck soon and will start working on it as my main hobby, until the money runs dry and back to woodworking with scraps again.
ayatollahgondola
I've been experiencing similar problem on a recently acquired 510. The way tubes are horribly misaligned. I place the machine in level, finding the lower crossbars level too, I then placed the level in various spots along the way tubes and found them unlevel. First off, I'll say I don't have the double tilt table, but it does have lift assist. I have seen that lift assist places quite a strain on one side of the way tubes, which complicates the alignment task in general. I was able to rotate the way tubes and bring it into level, or at least pretty close. The problem after that is that I really have to clamp down on the lock to keep the way tubes down evenly when the machine is in normal position, and in doing so, it does not want to release when the lever is unlocked to bring the machine in the upright position, you have to use the screwdriver to loosen it further.
Before getting them "leveled", I could actually see a tilt in the machine. It's better now. That lift assist adds a troubling aspect to the machine, but I can see the benefit of it if you're arthritic or have other health limiting factors.
All that said, I haven't notice an actual method in the manual for truing up the way tubes
JPG
When you say "level"/"tilt", what direction? End to end or across the way tubes? Does the level/tilt across the way tubes increase as the level is moved from the hinge end toward the clamping end or does it vary some other way?
ayatollahgondola
Yes; across the tubes. The middle was farther out of level than the ends. rotating the tubes helped, As stated, getting the tubes to rest evenly is pretty hard with that lift assist
JPG
Curious if the c-c spacing at the center also changed.
I presume both way tubes were 'bowed"(slightly). One concave upward and the other concave downward.
I suggest both concave downwards is preferable.
ayatollahgondola
Short of removing them and rolling them across a relatively flat and level plane, I'm going to assume they aren't in perfect plane. That still leaves the issues of the lift assist applying uneven pressure, and difficulty getting the tubes trued up so the stay level in the down position. I'm going to assume the reduced spring pressure while in the up position will not cause any twist
ayatollahgondola
I should have mention the headstock slides easier now, and that before, the headstock moved with some difficulty depending on where it was along the way tubes.
JPG
Not having any experience with the lift assist, I am confused re how it contributes to this problem.
jsburger
JPG wrote
Not having any experience with the lift assist, I am confused re how it contributes to this problem.
I have to agree. I have had the tilt assist since it was first introduced and never have had a problem. It clamps to the way tubed right next to the tilt base so unless there is a problem with the way tube clamping in the tilt base how could it contribute to misalignment in the way tubes? The tilt assist clamp just clamps to the way tubes in the orientation they are already in. It is not attached to anything else to force a change in the way tubes alignment.
Matanuska
In a previous thread I mentioned I’ve found that tightening down the Lift Assist bracket bolts too much can distort the way tube spacing and prevent the carriage from moving all the way to the right. Not sure that it would affect the headstock, but food for thought.
