JPG
bobw1953 wroteI was responding to several of the folks in the "Nostradamus" mode of predicting the end of the SS world due to perceived poor management.Sitting on the side lines thinking that Shopsmith can't price it right or deliver it right belies the fact that they have persisted in the consumer wood working tool business for many years, a testament to good management, good product, good product service.
Having been where they are making decisions that impact employees and customers negatively to keep the business afloat is neither for the timid or weak of will.
In this environment and in their market margins and cash flow are essential, and delivering new product innovations stresses both. It takes guts and vision to do this in uncertain times.
Ed in Tampa was the first of many comments in this thread that spawned my Opinion hope I haven't offended anyone, as it was certainly not my intent.
I think we are all both concerned and wish things were different while hoping they can 'stay the course' they have been on for decades. We are quite spoiled in our continuing expectations but also apprehensive that some day the bubble may burst.
We all perceive some actions that appear to be against our judgement of how things should be. There is nothing wrong with expressing those concerns, but they must be expressed and observed as an opinion far from the action.
Much as we would like to consider our investment in the company's produce as significant, the company has a far greater investment to be concerned with.
robedney
This is longish, but I got on a role:
I once made custom designed, one-of-a-kind furniture for a living. We had a big shop (1000 SF +-) and it was outfitted with heavy, dedicated power tools. Good old names like Powermatic, Rockwell-Delta, Oliver and others. Lots of cast iron. After moving on in life I ultimately ended up here in front of a computer to make a living, but I've always kept my hand in. That's resulted in the purchase and use of miscellaneous cheap tools to use on a single project -- tools like those made by Ryobi. From SS's perspective there are two problems with Ryobi tools: They are dirt cheap and they kind of work. My hundred dollar Ryobi band saw has seen hours of use. It's not great by any means and has multiple limitations.
I've recently acquired a SS (a 1956 Greenie) that I'm whipping into shape. Along with it I got a bandsaw, jointer, belt sander, jig saw and a box full of accessories and literature (great stuff from the 50's). I did this because I live on and am fitting out a 60' steel trawler (boat, 50 net tons). What the SS offers -- even at this vintage -- is quality -- quality that is very close to those old stationary tools -- all fitting into a compact space. I can't wait to fire up the Magna bandsaw (once adjusted) and be able to make a straight cut with good tracking -- something the Ryobi resists mightily.
That's the prelude. Here's my conclusion: The Shopsmith is unique in that it is a quality tool and very versatile. It fits into places that a collection of equally capable stationary tools just won't go. Moreover, it allows messing around with things like a V sander built to be powered by it -- or just finding a "Flea". In other words, it's a platform that inspires ideas.
Selling a SS in today's market -- saturated by cheap but often functional Chinese tools -- is more of a challenge than it was in the last century. For awhile there the country seemed to lose any sense of national pride when it came to products and welcomed the flood of cheap imports with open arms. Witness Walmart. That may be changing. It's getting harder and harder to ignore the possibility of China becoming the dominant economic power in the world.
It seems to me that SS still has some relevant and timely selling points, however.
Quality. That doesn't mean much standing on its own (unfortunately -- the word has been beat to death), but if you put it into the context of generations -- with ample examples of Shopsmiths serving their 3rd generation of users -- it may mean something. Passing it down to your kids doesn't mean what it once did -- now that your kids are far more likely to end up living on the other side of the country. Quality, however, means something more these days -- it means less junk in landfills -- and less energy consumed to make more junk to replace it.
This goes hand in hand with the ongoing ability to repair and upgrade. Try getting parts for cheap Chinese made tools. It's not the fault of the tool makers, but the distribution network. I murdered a Ryobi miter saw by using it to cut steel with an abrasive blade -- it lasted longer than I thought. When I priced replacement parts to repair it I discovered that it made no sense -- the parts totaled just a few bucks less than buying another one.
This results in more junk into landfill (unless fully recycled) and the energy/raw materials used to produce another expendable (essentially non-repairable) tool.
Equally, you can't very well make the argument that a SS uses less power (unless the rumored new drive system is more efficient) but you can argue that it takes significantly less energy/raw materials to make a fully functional suite of tools the Shopsmith way. One stand, one drive system for the full suite. That -- combined with durability, continuity on the upgrade path and quality in use -- really does mean something from a "green" standpoint.
We must also remember the "shiny object" syndrome, which it's mostly men that fall victim to. The SS is just plain fun as a mechanical object. Unlike much of today's electronically based products it's also understandable -- you can see how it works. It's sort of a workshop Lego set, and properly presented lots of people might find that irresistible.
SS needs to take advantage of state of the art media. In addition to very good but longish online how-to videos, there needs to be one main Flash based video that pops on the main site window and -- complete with music -- shows fast changeovers and snippets of details in functionality. Sixty seconds or less, revealing how easy it is to mount every accessory (SPT) and do something enticingly tricky with it. I do this sort of Flash-based stuff. Heck, I'd probably do it for free for SS. SS has to do online what the demonstrators used to do out in the field -- prove the value of the product. We all know what that value is.
It's not just marketing, however -- it's also all about delivery these days. It has to be available, if not at the big box stores than online, and it has to come pretty quickly. We don't have much patience as consumers these days.
Since reading through this thread I've pondered whether or not SS can succeed in today's market -- and I think it can, even at the price, with the right marketing and the ability to deliver. There is a niche -- not just old farts but young people looking for something to do that doesn't involve a computer or smart phone. Making heirlooms in the basement is an idea that can be revived, I suspect, for a new generation ----- not to mention to oncoming onslaught of us boomers retiring.
Ed in Tampa
robedney wroteThis is longish, but I got on a role:
I once made custom designed, one-of-a-kind furniture for a living. We had a big shop (1000 SF +-) and it was outfitted with heavy, dedicated power tools. Good old names like Powermatic, Rockwell-Delta, Oliver and others. Lots of cast iron. After moving on in life I ultimately ended up here in front of a computer to make a living, but I've always kept my hand in. That's resulted in the purchase and use of miscellaneous cheap tools to use on a single project -- tools like those made by Ryobi. From SS's perspective there are two problems with Ryobi tools: They are dirt cheap and they kind of work. My hundred dollar Ryobi band saw has seen hours of use. It's not great by any means and has multiple limitations.
I've recently acquired a SS (a 1956 Greenie) that I'm whipping into shape. Along with it I got a bandsaw, jointer, belt sander, jig saw and a box full of accessories and literature (great stuff from the 50's). I did this because I live on and am fitting out a 60' steel trawler (boat, 50 net tons). What the SS offers -- even at this vintage -- is quality -- quality that is very close to those old stationary tools -- all fitting into a compact space. I can't wait to fire up the Magna bandsaw (once adjusted) and be able to make a straight cut with good tracking -- something the Ryobi resists mightily.
That's the prelude. Here's my conclusion: The Shopsmith is unique in that it is a quality tool and very versatile. It fits into places that a collection of equally capable stationary tools just won't go. Moreover, it allows messing around with things like a V sander built to be powered by it -- or just finding a "Flea". In other words, it's a platform that inspires ideas.
Selling a SS in today's market -- saturated by cheap but often functional Chinese tools -- is more of a challenge than it was in the last century. For awhile there the country seemed to lose any sense of national pride when it came to products and welcomed the flood of cheap imports with open arms. Witness Walmart. That may be changing. It's getting harder and harder to ignore the possibility of China becoming the dominant economic power in the world.
It seems to me that SS still has some relevant and timely selling points, however.
Quality. That doesn't mean much standing on its own (unfortunately -- the word has been beat to death), but if you put it into the context of generations -- with ample examples of Shopsmiths serving their 3rd generation of users -- it may mean something. Passing it down to your kids doesn't mean what it once did -- now that your kids are far more likely to end up living on the other side of the country. Quality, however, means something more these days -- it means less junk in landfills -- and less energy consumed to make more junk to replace it.
This goes hand in hand with the ongoing ability to repair and upgrade. Try getting parts for cheap Chinese made tools. It's not the fault of the tool makers, but the distribution network. I murdered a Ryobi miter saw by using it to cut steel with an abrasive blade -- it lasted longer than I thought. When I priced replacement parts to repair it I discovered that it made no sense -- the parts totaled just a few bucks less than buying another one.
This results in more junk into landfill (unless fully recycled) and the energy/raw materials used to produce another expendable (essentially non-repairable) tool.
Equally, you can't very well make the argument that a SS uses less power (unless the rumored new drive system is more efficient) but you can argue that it takes significantly less energy/raw materials to make a fully functional suite of tools the Shopsmith way. One stand, one drive system for the full suite. That -- combined with durability, continuity on the upgrade path and quality in use -- really does mean something from a "green" standpoint.
We must also remember the "shiny object" syndrome, which it's mostly men that fall victim to. The SS is just plain fun as a mechanical object. Unlike much of today's electronically based products it's also understandable -- you can see how it works. It's sort of a workshop Lego set, and properly presented lots of people might find that irresistible.
SS needs to take advantage of state of the art media. In addition to very good but longish online how-to videos, there needs to be one main Flash based video that pops on the main site window and -- complete with music -- shows fast changeovers and snippets of details in functionality. Sixty seconds or less, revealing how easy it is to mount every accessory (SPT) and do something enticingly tricky with it. I do this sort of Flash-based stuff. Heck, I'd probably do it for free for SS. SS has to do online what the demonstrators used to do out in the field -- prove the value of the product. We all know what that value is.
It's not just marketing, however -- it's also all about delivery these days. It has to be available, if not at the big box stores than online, and it has to come pretty quickly. We don't have much patience as consumers these days.
Since reading through this thread I've pondered whether or not SS can succeed in today's market -- and I think it can, even at the price, with the right marketing and the ability to deliver. There is a niche -- not just old farts but young people looking for something to do that doesn't involve a computer or smart phone. Making heirlooms in the basement is an idea that can be revived, I suspect, for a new generation ----- not to mention to oncoming onslaught of us boomers retiring.
You offer an interesting perspective and one I hope Shopsmith is smart enough to consider. I'm not sure about all your conclusions but the ones I do agree with I think are excellent.
I'm not sure space is the issue it once was. Have a boat build a third garage, have a golf cart and a boat build a fourth bay garage. I don't live in a super up scale neighbor hood but a few of my neighbors have three car attached garages and four car unattached plus horse barns to cover all their activities. They think I'm nuts confining myself to my two garage. They simply can't understand why I don't build a third or fourth bay onto it. My wife agrees with them.
I especially like your connection with shiney. It is true most fishing lures today catch more fishermen than they ever catch fish. If it is shiney and has lots of bells and whisles sign me up.
JPG
The title says it all!:)
easterngray
JPG - Come on now - don't leave us hanging! This is, after all, the "forum of the faithful"! What have you heard? Alec
recurvearcher
Wow and tomorrow is my Birthday too............Perhaps I'll get to buy a PowerPro?
JPG
easterngray wroteJPG - Come on now - don't leave us hanging! This is, after all, the "forum of the faithful"! What have you heard? Alec
If nothing happens tomorrow, I will tell why the 'heads up'. It will mean another mis-leading(or best guess) 'estimate' from CS.
nuhobby
tdubnik
I'm sure this is exciting news for some of you but it's priced outside of MY price range. I guess I'll just stick with my current headstock.
riot_nrrd
This rocks. The upgrade option looks pretty simple, and the pricing is high, but not unaffordably so. I'm buying one!
Was this released to the public? I can't find any link to it on the regualr site...
eartigas
I would like to see full technical specs of the new head such as power, AC voltage it can operate (120;240?), type of motor, etc.
Is this info somewhere?
riot_nrrd
This is from the e-mail announcments page -
Now, you (and the 600,000+ other Shopsmith MARK V Owners in America) can upgrade your MARK Vs to the next level... and get even MORE performance than you've enjoyed thus far !
MORE POWER: Upgrade your MARK V now and you’ll have 1-3/4 hp @ 120 volts (2 hp @ 240 volts) and, thanks to its unique design, at least TWICE the torque at every speed -- so you can literally blaze through the thickest, toughest lumber with your Table Saw, Jointer, Thickness Planer and more without slowing down or stalling. It's the kind of power once reserved for high-priced commercial machinery... and it can be yours, with your trusty Shopsmith MARK V !
BROADER SPEED RANGE: Upgrade your MARK V's speed range to an amazing 250rpm to 10,000rpm, overnight ! On the low end, you'll be able to bore huge holes for clocks and similar projects with giant multi-spur bits or Forstner bits... and turn large diameter platters, bowls or spindles on your lathe... all without fear of burning your bits, chisels or wood.
On the high end, you'll enjoy speeds comparable to a commercial Shaper for shaping or routing edges, surfaces, dadoes and grooves faster than ever before with super-smooth results and no feathering chattering or splintering.
RUN FORWARD OR REVERSE: Upgrade now to enjoy the benefits of electronically controlled forward or reverse operation and you'll be able to perform bi-directional sanding, with-the-grain cuts and safer, under-the-workpiece shaping operations that were never before possible.
LOWERED POWER REQUIREMENTS: No more start-up power surges that dimmed your lights and often required slow-blow circuit protection. No more tripped fuses or circuit breakers caused by operating your MARK V and Dust Collector at the same time. Even save money on power consumption throughout your working cycle with the new, Hi-Tech, Hi-Efficiency DVR Motor and its computerized controller.
ENJOY THE SHOPSMITH QUALITY YOU'VE ALWAYS EXPECTED... AND THE WARRANTIES THAT PROTECT YOUR INVESTMENT: Like every Shopsmith product, you can always count on the new PowerPro Headstock meeting our same, high-quality Shopsmith standards of protection for your tool investment. You'll get a full 5-Year Warranty on the Motor, a 2-Year Warranty on all Electronic Components, Belts and Bearings (including parts and labor in both cases) and a Lifetime Warranty on materials and workmanship !
dusty
The new PowerPro looks impressive and I would love to have one out in the shop but I will have to wait (maybe a very long time). Mister Folkerth is a bit too proud of this new version of the Mark V.
I conclude from the video shown that there is a new motor, a power supply, a new idler shaft and the control panel. All of this comes with a drill guide for the holes that must be drilled.
Is there more or is that it?
paulrussell
Looks like the do-it-yourself upgrade yields an unexpected benefit in my case. The left-over parts will allow me to upgrade my Dad's machine to a dual-bearing quill (the leftover old one from my machine.)
Gene Howe
Hmmmm....Looks like I'll be stuck in the 20th century for a while longer.
I don't drill or do any turning with my SS. Just ripping, some crosscutting and mitering. I can't see a $1500 (+ -) advantage. Am I missing something?
JPG
dusty wroteThe new PowerPro looks impressive and I would love to have one out in the shop but I will have to wait (maybe a very long time). Mister Folkerth is a bit too proud of this new version of the Mark V.
I conclude from the video shown that there is a new motor, a power supply, a new idler shaft and the control panel. All of this comes with a drill guide for the holes that must be drilled.
Is there more or is that it?
A new two bearing quill, a new main shaft/bearings, a new 'upper' poly-v belt, a new power cord, drill bits,longer poly-v motor belt, motor mounting bracket. EDIT: Looks like a new power switch also(for the older Type B headstock machines)
And hurrah, ya kin remove the motor pan
INDEPENDENT of the motor mount!!!
Off by a factor of 2 for my wallet!(%$$%$&^%^) !
Only $400 difference from total new to do-it-yourself - Makes ya wonder if they really want to sell a 'kit'. With the total new, ya keep yer old one!
paulrussell
JPG40504 wrote
Only $300 difference from total new to do-it-yourself - Makes ya wonder if they really want to sell a 'kit'. With the total new, ya keep yer old one!
That's what I thought at first, but then I recalled that the going rate 'round here for an 80's era Shopsmith is not much over $300, and that includes a lot more than just a headstock. Of course if you have a newly rebuilt and headstock that's a whole different matter.
Other than the overall price, the options all look great.
etc92guy
This may change Shopsmith economics ( Shopsmithnomics? ). With setting the trade-in value of a old headstock at $200.00, there may be a jump in prices for a while ( well, the headstock alone is worth 200 buck)
Depends on how many jump for the upgrade.
JPG
etc92guy wroteThis may change Shopsmith economics ( Shopsmithnomics? ). With setting the trade-in value of a old headstock at $200.00, there may be a jump in prices for a while ( well, the headstock alone is worth 200 buck)
Depends on how many jump for the upgrade.
Wonder how they will handle 'junk' headstocks submitted for upgrade?
Come to think of it, all they really need is a non-cracked/non-broken casting.
Wonder it they would accept only that as a trade in??????
forrestb
Since 1) my current 1976 version has demonstrated superb reliability and 2) those prices!, I think I will continue to turn the speed down before shutoff to allow a new start-up without CB trip.
Maybe in 10 or 15 years I'll pop for a PowerPro if its reliability is demonstrated. Having worked in electronics for 40 years, I have a healthy suspect of new electronic articles.
