New to Me Model 10E Serial Number 1077

[chapmanruss]

John,
Is the Document you received different from the PDF ad we each have? If so I would love to see it. I still believe this was made early on for the 10E. First it is pictured in the ad on an early 10E as you noted with the first fence and also has the early trunnion. Second it's part number 123-1X is from before all the part numbers changed in November 1951. If it had been made only in the late 10ER production it would have a different part number. My guess as to why there are not very many out there is these were an additional item and Magna soon came up with the more common arm the attaches to the table post with the screw that raises and lowers it. That was most likely cheaper to produce and is simpler to use with the same effect. It quickly became a standard item on the Shopsmith which is why so many have it. As to the quote from the Ad we have in PDF form...

"Table is raised quickly to a position near the desired setting. It can then be raised by a screw adjustment to the precise setting required. No slow, tedious cranking to move the table up and down, but precision where precision is needed."

No slow, tedious cranking What does that mean if this is the first table raiser?

Although it says "to move the table up and down" I'm not sure they were talking about the Shopsmith but may be referring to other tools. Either Table Rising Assembly depends on the table being moved close to the correct height than set the post on the early one or the arm on the later system and turn the screw adjustment to set the correct height.
Both set the table to the "precise setting required." Just my feeling on the subject.

[jsburger]

John,
Is the Document you received different from the PDF ad we each have? If so I would love to see it. I still believe this was made early on for the 10E. First it is pictured in the ad on an early 10E as you noted with the first fence and also has the early trunnion. Second it's part number 123-1X is from before all the part numbers changed in November 1951. If it had been made only in the late 10ER production it would have a different part number. My guess as to why there are not very many out there is these were an additional item and Magna soon came up with the more common arm the attaches to the table post with the screw that raises and lowers it. That was most likely cheaper to produce and is simpler to use with the same effect. It quickly became a standard item on the Shopsmith which is why so many have it. As to the quote from the Ad we have in PDF form...

"Table is raised quickly to a position near the desired setting. It can then be raised by a screw adjustment to the precise setting required. No slow, tedious cranking to move the table up and down, but precision where precision is needed."

No slow, tedious cranking What does that mean if this is the first table raiser?

Although it says "to move the table up and down" I'm not sure they were talking about the Shopsmith but may be referring to other tools. Either Table Rising Assembly depends on the table being moved close to the correct height than set the post on the early one or the arm on the later system and turn the screw adjustment to set the correct height.
Both set the table to the "precise setting required." Just my feeling on the subject.

You are probably correct given the part number issue.

[JPG]

John,
Is the Document you received different from the PDF ad we each have? If so I would love to see it. I still believe this was made early on for the 10E. First it is pictured in the ad on an early 10E as you noted with the first fence and also has the early trunnion. Second it's part number 123-1X is from before all the part numbers changed in November 1951. If it had been made only in the late 10ER production it would have a different part number. My guess as to why there are not very many out there is these were an additional item and Magna soon came up with the more common arm the attaches to the table post with the screw that raises and lowers it. That was most likely cheaper to produce and is simpler to use with the same effect. It quickly became a standard item on the Shopsmith which is why so many have it. As to the quote from the Ad we have in PDF form...

"Table is raised quickly to a position near the desired setting. It can then be raised by a screw adjustment to the precise setting required. No slow, tedious cranking to move the table up and down, but precision where precision is needed."

No slow, tedious cranking What does that mean if this is the first table raiser?

Although it says "to move the table up and down" I'm not sure they were talking about the Shopsmith but may be referring to other tools. Either Table Rising Assembly depends on the table being moved close to the correct height than set the post on the early one or the arm on the later system and turn the screw adjustment to set the correct height.
Both set the table to the "precise setting required." Just my feeling on the subject.

You are probably correct given the part number issue.

I think it means you can pre position the table quickly by either manually moving it OR use the course pitched elevation crank, THEN, Fine tune it with the "Table raiser". That is why it has a quick set adjustment.

As for the chicken/egg question I haven't a clue, but I suspect it came later but was expensive so few were purchased. I have not seen it in any accessory info I have.

[jsburger]

John,
Is the Document you received different from the PDF ad we each have? If so I would love to see it. I still believe this was made early on for the 10E. First it is pictured in the ad on an early 10E as you noted with the first fence and also has the early trunnion. Second it's part number 123-1X is from before all the part numbers changed in November 1951. If it had been made only in the late 10ER production it would have a different part number. My guess as to why there are not very many out there is these were an additional item and Magna soon came up with the more common arm the attaches to the table post with the screw that raises and lowers it. That was most likely cheaper to produce and is simpler to use with the same effect. It quickly became a standard item on the Shopsmith which is why so many have it. As to the quote from the Ad we have in PDF form...



Although it says "to move the table up and down" I'm not sure they were talking about the Shopsmith but may be referring to other tools. Either Table Rising Assembly depends on the table being moved close to the correct height than set the post on the early one or the arm on the later system and turn the screw adjustment to set the correct height.
Both set the table to the "precise setting required." Just my feeling on the subject.

You are probably correct given the part number issue.

I think it means you can pre position the table quickly by either manually moving it OR use the course pitched elevation crank, THEN, Fine tune it with the "Table raiser". That is why it has a quick set adjustment.

As for the chicken/egg question I haven't a clue, but I suspect it came later but was expensive so few were purchased. I have not seen it in any accessory info I have.

Russ said they were talking about other than SS tools when they said "tedious cranking" in the document. What other tools were out there that had this feature back then? Why would you mention some unnamed tool in a customer brochure for your product. I would think that you would tout the advancement of this new accessory over the previous.

Here is another curious statement in the brochure.

"Shopsmith Table Raising assembly can be installed quickly and easily. All shopsmith carriages are drilled and tapped to fit the 1/2" cap screw supplied with this assembly."

So, if this is the first table raiser why would you state this in the customer document. Obviously if you need to mount the table raiser on the carriage there would be a threaded hole. You don't need to tell the consumer that.

Another thing is why a 1/2" threaded hole? From a design point that seems to me to be way over kill. A 1/4" or at the most a 5/16" bolt would be more than enough to secure the table raiser unless you are using an existing hole.

I agree with you James but Russ' point about the part number puts a monkey wrench in all this.

Russ, the original document I just received is the same as the copy we have. It is in absolutely pristine condition. $18 but so what? It is attached.

[JPG]

The "1/2 inch" screw fits the table raiser crank hole.

So it needs to be pre set manually only.

[chapmanruss]

They had to have plans for some kind of accessory to attach in the 1/2" Threaded Hole in the carriage since it has been part of the Carriage casting from the beginning. Below is the Carriage from S/N 1077.

Carriage from S/N 1077

103-2 marked.jpg (347.46 KiB) Viewed 21199 times

The 1/2" bolt for attaching the "first" Table Raising Assembly may be overkill but not for the Crank Screw that raises the Arm that attaches to the table post in the more common Table Raiser. Now it has me just wondering about their thought processes.

[jsburger]

They had to have plans for some kind of accessory to attach in the 1/2" Threaded Hole in the carriage since it has been part of the Carriage casting from the beginning. Below is the Carriage from S/N 1077.

103-2 marked.jpg
The 1/2" bolt for attaching the "first" Table Raising Assembly may be overkill but not for the Crank Screw that raises the Arm that attaches to the table post in the more common Table Raiser. Now it has me just wondering about their thought processes.

Which is all why I questioned the order of release. Here is a list of what I think is questionable.

1. All carriages have 1/2" holes. As you say it is the right size for the crank but I think it is way over kill for the other table raiser. So why was such a large bolt used for the non crank table raiser if it came first? If it didn't come first it was there so they used it.

2. The table raiser brochure mentions eliminating tedious cranking. Why would you mention that unless you were talking about your own product. It does not make sense to me that they would be talking about some unknown machine by some unknown manufacturer.

3. Why mention in the brochure that the table raiser mounts to the 1/2" drilled and tapped hole that all Shopsmith carriages have if that hole was put there in the first place to attach that table raiser.

But there is a fly in the ointment. Your point about the part number is a very valid one. It could be that the table raiser was an early design improvement that got assigned a part number and never got produced until later and the part number was never changed.

We will probably never know.

[chapmanruss]

John did you take Debating in School? You have the qualities of a good debater.

You wrote commenting on my previous post about the 1/2" threaded hole being there from the begining

Which is all why I questioned the order of release. Here is a list of what I think is questionable.

1. All carriages have 1/2" holes. As you say it is the right size for the crank but I think it is way over kill for the other table raiser. So why was such a large bolt used for the non crank table raiser if it came first? If it didn't come first it was there so they used it.

2. The table raiser brochure mentions eliminating tedious cranking. Why would you mention that unless you were talking about your own product. It does not make sense to me that they would be talking about some unknown machine by some unknown manufacturer.

3. Why mention in the brochure that the table raiser mounts to the 1/2" drilled and tapped hole that all Shopsmith carriages have if that hole was put there in the first place to attach that table raiser.

But there is a fly in the ointment. Your point about the part number is a very valid one. It could be that the table raiser was an early design improvement that got assigned a part number and never got produced until later and the part number was never changed.

We will probably never know.

I'm going to throw another "Monkey Wrench" into the mix. Attached is the Instructions for the "Crank and Arm" Table Raiser in the PDF below.

Table Raising Assembly.PDF

(1.48 MiB) Downloaded 2332 times

This is the instructions and not an ad but some terminology is the same between the two types of Table Raising Assemblies even though they are being described for different purposes. One is to sell it the other is how to use it. They both use the term "Micro Adjustment" in what the two assemblies will do for you. Unfortunately neither the ad or the instructions have a date on them. The only thing we have to go by is they are both shown on a 10E with the early Table Trunnion.

My thought on your item #2 - Both types eliminate tedious cranking since they were designed to have the table adjusted to the approximate height then the rod of the one or the arm of the other is set and the the "Micro Adjustment" is made by turning the screw knob or the crank.

My thought on your item #1 - Is it possible that both systems were in planning when the first 10E's were being made requiring something on the carriage for them?

My thought on your item #3 - Mentioning in the ad that the table raiser mounts to the 1/2" drilled and tapped hole that all Shopsmith carriages have is a selling point that no modifications are needed to use this accessory.

Finally I can't believe that the rod and screw system came out near the end of the 10ER being made and they left the old number on it. Since the numbers changed about two years before Model 10ER production ended.

Also, I just noticed, it is listed (no picture) as an accessory in the parts lists of the early 10E Manuals as 123-1X. So I checked and the Arm & Crank are listed in the 1951 Manual as 103-38 Table Riser Arm, 103-46RX Table Riser Knob and Stud and 103-40X or 103-39X Table Riser Screw and Handle.

John I think you have said it best... We will probably never know.

[jsburger]

No debating experience Russ. I just enjoy reading things critically when definitive information is not available and try to determine what might have happened based on the words that were written. I think we have said all there is to say on the subject so unless some documentation with dates shows up we will never know.

[JPG]

A good 'debater' has good 'deductive thinking'.