M5 MOUNT ROUT TABLE MOD

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RFGuy
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Re: M5 MOUNT ROUT TABLE MOD

Post by RFGuy »

A related question on flatness...So I have several of these laminated fixtures from Shopsmith, e.g. jointer auxiliary fence, crosscut sled, outfeed table, router table, etc., etc. I presume that Shopsmith is using MDF and laminating top and bottom on these parts. Am I the only one having issues with these parts swelling over time? I live in AZ where it is relatively dry and I keep everything inside a garage AND off the floor, etc. It has never been flooded and stays as dry as a desert all the time. Also, I purchased all parts new. After many years of use, some of these Shopsmith products have started to swell in some areas. I can tell because when I look near the edges, I can see that the product has grown in thickness because it is much thicker than the edge banding now. It isn't consistent either, i.e. some areas are original thickness and other areas have swollen. It wasn't like this before. Anyone else have issues with MDF related fixtures (Shopsmith or other ones) distorting in their shop due to humidity? Any suggestions for what can be done to keep and maintain MDF related fixtures so they don't go wonky like this in the shop? Or do you just have to replace them over time and consider it a "disposable" item (like sandpaper, etc.) in the shop?
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dusty
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Re: M5 MOUNT ROUT TABLE MOD

Post by dusty »

I have lost some edge banding on all three of the Shopsmith tables that I have but I can not say that I have any indication of swelling on any of them. With the edge banding gone I can say that these tables were not made using the best MDF I have seen. However, my tables are all 15-20 years old and I am sure that some MDF has improved over the years.
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JPG
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Re: M5 MOUNT ROUT TABLE MOD

Post by JPG »

I placed a 24" 'I-gage' rule on edge(self standing) and observed any gap along it's length.

I do not think perfection is required at all. Essentially the area around the cutter affects the end result. Now IF the table top surface were concave, then I would be concerned. Pix may be coming.
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RFGuy
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Re: M5 MOUNT ROUT TABLE MOD

Post by RFGuy »

dusty wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:16 pm I have lost some edge banding on all three of the Shopsmith tables that I have but I can not say that I have any indication of swelling on any of them. With the edge banding gone I can say that these tables were not made using the best MDF I have seen. However, my tables are all 15-20 years old and I am sure that some MDF has improved over the years.
Thanks. So, here is a picture showing the problem. This is the front edge of the Shopsmith outfeed table. The corner is lifting on this one and this is the top of it so it creates a problem for using it for outfeed support unless I set the outfeed height lower than I really want to set it. I measure about 1.0mm more thickness in this area of the table. Note this is on the top of the outfeed table, i.e. when it is standing upright, but off of the Mark V. So there is no way this came into contact with the ground, wall or any surface with moisture. :confused: This isn't even the worst one that I have. I think the support table for my Shopsmith crosscut sled is the worst one with lots of expansion all around making it unusable (several millimeters of expansion). I really don't understand this because I live in a dry climate and these have been well taken care of. I replaced a couple of these already from Shopsmith, but just wondering what is going wrong here. How can air humidity, in a desert, cause these expansions? From my limited experience it seems like MDF is a bad choice for anything shop related, but I know A LOT of people use MDF in their shops so what am I missing here? Is it possible that these Shopsmith accessories are made of something else (like a lower quality fiberboard)? I know I can build my own versions of these using Baltic Birch or hardwood, but I had purchased these previously from Shopsmith for expediency.
IMG_5574.jpg
IMG_5574.jpg (71.67 KiB) Viewed 879 times
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
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reible
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Re: M5 MOUNT ROUT TABLE MOD

Post by reible »

Here is a post from 2008 where I was dealing with some similar issues and how I solved them:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2771

I don't know how to classify the material but it crumbles more like particle board then MDF and like wise I don't like it very well.

Ed
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RFGuy
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Re: M5 MOUNT ROUT TABLE MOD

Post by RFGuy »

Ed,

Thanks. I was really holding out hope that Shopsmith used MDF for those, but from your pics it sure looks like particle board. :( That sucks...oh well. Still surprised that a product like this sitting up, suspended in air, NEVER exposed to moisture (other than desert air) can warp like this. Just surprising, but I have gotten good use over many years from them so not really complaining here... rather hoping to understand why it happened.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
RFGuy
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Re: M5 MOUNT ROUT TABLE MOD

Post by RFGuy »

RFGuy wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:50 pm Thanks. So, here is a picture showing the problem. This is the front edge of the Shopsmith outfeed table. The corner is lifting on this one and this is the top of it so it creates a problem for using it for outfeed support unless I set the outfeed height lower than I really want to set it. I measure about 1.0mm more thickness in this area of the table. Note this is on the top of the outfeed table, i.e. when it is standing upright, but off of the Mark V. So there is no way this came into contact with the ground, wall or any surface with moisture. :confused: This isn't even the worst one that I have. I think the support table for my Shopsmith crosscut sled is the worst one with lots of expansion all around making it unusable (several millimeters of expansion). I really don't understand this because I live in a dry climate and these have been well taken care of. I replaced a couple of these already from Shopsmith, but just wondering what is going wrong here. How can air humidity, in a desert, cause these expansions? From my limited experience it seems like MDF is a bad choice for anything shop related, but I know A LOT of people use MDF in their shops so what am I missing here? Is it possible that these Shopsmith accessories are made of something else (like a lower quality fiberboard)? I know I can build my own versions of these using Baltic Birch or hardwood, but I had purchased these previously from Shopsmith for expediency.
IMG_5574.jpg
Okay, it took me a bit to get around to going in the attic to retrieve these for pics (not sure why I saved them). Below are a couple of pics showing the issue with the Shopsmith crosscut sled support table and crosscut sled. The support piece is at least 2mm thicker than original and the sled is at least 4mm thicker than original. Just to reiterate these have never been exposed to water damage and always elevated (off floor) in a shop in the dry desert climate where I live (and purchased new from Shopsmith). Surprised that I am the only one who has had issues with these Shopsmith accessories. I had bought replacements previously but just wondering how long they will last since my original sets did this. In reading the document below on expansion of particle board, I am assuming that the adhesive/binder in the particle board most likely failed over the course of multiple thermal expansion cycles (since garages here can get quite hot in summer). At least this seems like the most probable failure mechanism than moisture to me. Curious if anyone has had these issues and/or if anyone has more insight into how particle board, or MDF, can failed in a dry climate shop? You might argue that 1mm is minor, but having 2-4mm expansion on what are intended to be flat, reference surfaces such as the crosscut sled is a serious issue. Also, the expansion is not uniform across the entire surface. Circling back to the topic of this thread (sorry for going slightly off-topic), the one positive aspect is that my Shopsmith router table so far has not shown any issues like I am reporting with these other accessories so perhaps it is a better material??? I haven't measured flatness on the router table, but spot checks of it look very good on mine.

Crosscut Sled Support Table:
IMG_5588.jpg
IMG_5588.jpg (71.92 KiB) Viewed 842 times
Crosscut Sled:
IMG_5589.jpg
IMG_5589.jpg (38.88 KiB) Viewed 842 times
Particle Board Expansion:
ParticleBoard.pdf
(842.6 KiB) Downloaded 593 times
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
DLB
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Re: M5 MOUNT ROUT TABLE MOD

Post by DLB »

The router table flatness issue I reported is probably a different issue. Buckeye Dennis reported the same thing on his tricked out router table with the same surface. The standalone tables tend to be stored horizontally for years, are supported more from the perimeter, and have the weight of the router plus whatever gets put on top. With the cutout being the weak point anyway they tend to sag with age. May be a different material. Seems like most of the nicer router tables available now have moved away from these material types. If you flatten them with a reinforcing steel frame I think they will stay flat.

I have some of the other pieces, sled, sled aux table, and jointer fence extension, and none of them have yet exhibited the problem RF Guy is discussing. I'm missing a bunch of edge band, but otherwise these are in good shape. I got them all second (at least) hand so I don't know their history, but most probably spent their careers in North Texas. We have large temp and humidity swings, especially compared to AZ. I don't love the material either, but my investment in it is small.

- David
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