Table Line Up

Forum for Maintenance and Repair topics. Feel free to ask questions or contribute.

Moderators: HopefulSSer, admin

DLB
Platinum Member
Posts: 1985
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:24 am
Location: Joshua Texas

Re: Table Line Up

Post by DLB »

dusty wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:22 am My Table to Blade Alignment is done this way with all four trunnion bolts loose to allow the table to be repositioned under control of the two Adjustable Stop Collars. "Equal radings" on dial indicators indicate parallelism of a miter track to the alignment plate (saw blade). I do this only when table to blade alignment is in doubt (which is seldom).
Dusty - Using the Stop Collars, how close do you get to equal readings with the trunnion bolts loose? And how close does it hold when you tighten all four trunnion bolts? (I've often wondered if tilting the table to get to the second pair of trunnion bolts on 510/520 is something that should be improved upon.)

These are great, perhaps pricey, approaches. In my experience better control of the table while the trunnions are loose, your stop collars, would be the key to better results than I get now. (I generally achieve +/- 0.003" over 8" using the SS dial gauge fixture saw blade version. Better than that becomes time consuming with hit or miss, as opposed to controlled, results.)

- David
User avatar
dusty
Platinum Member
Posts: 21359
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona

Re: Table Line Up

Post by dusty »

DLB wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:39 am
dusty wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:22 am My Table to Blade Alignment is done this way with all four trunnion bolts loose to allow the table to be repositioned under control of the two Adjustable Stop Collars. "Equal radings" on dial indicators indicate parallelism of a miter track to the alignment plate (saw blade). I do this only when table to blade alignment is in doubt (which is seldom).
Dusty - Using the Stop Collars, how close do you get to equal readings with the trunnion bolts loose? And how close does it hold when you tighten all four trunnion bolts? (I've often wondered if tilting the table to get to the second pair of trunnion bolts on 510/520 is something that should be improved upon.)

These are great, perhaps pricey, approaches. In my experience better control of the table while the trunnions are loose, your stop collars, would be the key to better results than I get now. (I generally achieve +/- 0.003" over 8" using the SS dial gauge fixture saw blade version. Better than that becomes time consuming with hit or miss, as opposed to controlled, results.)

- David
Before I answer:

I loosen and then finger tighten all four bolts. I leave them that way until I declare alignment. The table is moveable but definitely not secure. I then force the main table HARD right so that the trunnion are against the trunnion bolts.

Don't try to move it with your forehead like Nick did.

how close do you get to equal readings with the trunnion bolts loose...dead on equal until you attempt to secure the trunnions.

At this point I have moved the table left only the amount needed to make the numbers "equal" by using either or both of the stop collars. The stop collars are now a reference surface for parallel. Using a bar clamp I pull the extension table and main table firmly together thus sandwiching the stop collars. Tigthen the two accessible trunnion bolts. Recheck, tighten the other two trunnion bolts and you are done.

You may not be dead on parallel when all done but you will definitely be close enough. As close as you are going to get with a multifunction machine. I tighten the bolts incrementally and then crank down on them one more time. Same with the other two trunnion bolts.

I have been doing this in this manner for a long time but I want to go on record saying that the SuperBar(s) make it an awful lot easier and more accurate. I don't have to hold the dial indicator tight in the miter track re: Nick in the video.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
User avatar
dusty
Platinum Member
Posts: 21359
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona

Re: Table Line Up

Post by dusty »

My dial indicators prior to the SuperBar but no more. They worked but not without frustration. Much like the Shopsmith version. The same could also .be done using a caliper and the MAG-DRO.

All of which I have proving I am a tool junky.
20210118_094204.jpg
20210118_094204.jpg (326.93 KiB) Viewed 1211 times
20210118_111931.jpg
20210118_111931.jpg (266.8 KiB) Viewed 1211 times
20210119_082151.jpg
20210119_082151.jpg (340.67 KiB) Viewed 1211 times
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
User avatar
dusty
Platinum Member
Posts: 21359
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona

Re: Table Line Up

Post by dusty »

I set out this morning to go through my alignment procedure, using two dial indicators, and document each significant step. I got stopped in my tracks.

I first loosened all four trunnion bolts (finger tight). I then slid the tubes into the rails for rough front to back alignment. I have to remove the tubes before I mount the adjustable stop collar - physical interferece. I then slid the main table to the left against the trunnion bolts. After setting the stop collars in place and mounting the SuperBars with dial indicators, I took a couple readings.

Surprised by the readings, I did it all again.

What now? Secure the trunnion bolts and call it quits????
SuperBars positioned for table alignment
SuperBars positioned for table alignment
20210503_061408.jpg (345.34 KiB) Viewed 1185 times
Infeed side of alignment pate
Infeed side of alignment pate
20210503_061330.jpg (265.67 KiB) Viewed 1185 times
Outfeed side of alignment plate
Outfeed side of alignment plate
20210503_061342.jpg (308.78 KiB) Viewed 1185 times
I have not buttoned it up but I can not improve on this.

I would be very interested in feedback from a couple of users who have repeated this process - taking the readings after doing nothing more than pushing the main table hard right against the trunnion bolts.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
garys
Platinum Member
Posts: 2075
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:16 am
Location: Bismarck, ND

Re: Table Line Up

Post by garys »

It appears to me that you are overthinking this. You should be able to get an adequate alignment by simply putting the factory table insert in the table, lowering the table down with either the sanding disk or a saw blade (make sure the blade or disk has no wobble), and adjust the table so it sits straight. No fancy equipment is needed to get it straight. This sets your table for crosscuts.
Then, for ripping, simply run the fence over near the blade. Take a small piece of wood that is parallel on the sides and put it between the fence and blade. Slide it across the blade to ensure the distance it the same as it slides through. If it isn't, adjust the fence to sit parallel to the blade.

These two simple adjustments shouldn't have to be redone unless you take things apart again, so you can work happily for years without having to mess with the saw again.
The more complicated you make the setup, the more chance for error.
User avatar
dusty
Platinum Member
Posts: 21359
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona

Re: Table Line Up

Post by dusty »

garys wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:11 am It appears to me that you are overthinking this. You should be able to get an adequate alignment by simply putting the factory table insert in the table, lowering the table down with either the sanding disk or a saw blade (make sure the blade or disk has no wobble), and adjust the table so it sits straight. No fancy equipment is needed to get it straight. This sets your table for crosscuts.
Then, for ripping, simply run the fence over near the blade. Take a small piece of wood that is parallel on the sides and put it between the fence and blade. Slide it across the blade to ensure the distance it the same as it slides through. If it isn't, adjust the fence to sit parallel to the blade.

These two simple adjustments shouldn't have to be redone unless you take things apart again, so you can work happily for years without having to mess with the saw again.
The more complicated you make the setup, the more chance for error.
I have no basis for argument! The only weakness that I see in your approach is the users ability to "adjust the table so that it sits straight". How straight is straight enough???

I have a piece of MDF that is outfitted with a "perfectly sized" piece of hardwood to function as a miter bar. I passed that across a saw table that I felt was properly aligned and often use that as a check for alignment. It can be used in exactly the same manner as you say you use the table insert.

Same for aligning the rip fence.

Still...the only question is how parallel is parallel enough? .001", .005" or .0156"?

After completing a setup as you describe, have you made any measurements? Just curious.

Your methods are much less expensive, too. I have $200+ invested in the toys I have pictured in this thread.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
RFGuy
Platinum Member
Posts: 2740
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
Location: a suburb of PHX, AZ

Re: Table Line Up

Post by RFGuy »

Dusty,

I am far from being an alignment expert or even a Shopsmith expert for that matter, but I think I see a potential problem with the method you showed using two dial indicators. IF I am understanding correctly you are taking two absolute measurements, one at the front of the disc and one at the rear of the disc using two Superbars. So, what happens if there is a small difference between these Superbars, e.g. the stem on one dial indicator is slightly longer or mounted off center in the Superbar, etc., etc.? I thought it was more important to take the relative (difference) measurement, i.e. using only one Superbar to measure in both places. I do think you might be introducing an additional source of error into the alignment by using two Superbars in this manner. It might be possible that you show identical numbers on both dial indicators indicating you have alignment when in reality one could be off by a few thou to the other one resulting in the potential for kickback.

In your previous pic you showed two Superbars both showing the same reading on the dial indicator, but does this mean the miter slot is parallel to the sawblade IF there is any discrepancy between the two Superbars?
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
User avatar
JPG
Platinum Member
Posts: 34610
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:42 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky (TAMECAT territory)

Re: Table Line Up

Post by JPG »

A simple way to verify. Reverse locations of the supebar/indicator. Then remove and again reverse(allows seeing effects of 'resetting').
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
User avatar
dusty
Platinum Member
Posts: 21359
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona

Re: Table Line Up

Post by dusty »

RFGuy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:54 am Dusty,

I am far from being an alignment expert or even a Shopsmith expert for that matter, but I think I see a potential problem with the method you showed using two dial indicators. IF I am understanding correctly you are taking two absolute measurements, one at the front of the disc and one at the rear of the disc using two Superbars. So, what happens if there is a small difference between these Superbars, e.g. the stem on one dial indicator is slightly longer or mounted off center in the Superbar, etc., etc.? I thought it was more important to take the relative (difference) measurement, i.e. using only one Superbar to measure in both places. I do think you might be introducing an additional source of error into the alignment by using two Superbars in this manner. It might be possible that you show identical numbers on both dial indicators indicating you have alignment when in reality one could be off by a few thou to the other one resulting in the potential for kickback.

In your previous pic you showed two Superbars both showing the same reading on the dial indicator, but does this mean the miter slot is parallel to the sawblade IF there is any discrepancy between the two Superbars?
Yes, I do believe that two identical readings can be considered as two equal distance readings - meaning parallelism. As a requisite to this procedure the two dial indicators were zeroed independently at the same point. I choose the end of the drive shaft that you see in some of the photos.

I have also satisfied myself that the dial indicator readings are reliable by swap them back and forth as JPG suggested.

Because this is something of "a game" for me, I have also done these checks using my other dial indicators (the home brew) and the MAG-DRO with a digital caliper. Believe me, the readings are accurate.

What the SuperBar brings to this procedure is a dial indicator that is reliably seated in the miter track with no deviation caused by slop in the miter track.

I am not striving for greater accuracy. I am looking for ease of alignment and repeatability. Miter track slop makes both of those doubtful.

I appreciate the feedback.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
RFGuy
Platinum Member
Posts: 2740
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
Location: a suburb of PHX, AZ

Re: Table Line Up

Post by RFGuy »

dusty wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:09 pm Yes, I do believe that two identical readings can be considered as two equal distance readings - meaning parallelism. As a requisite to this procedure the two dial indicators were zeroed independently at the same point. I choose the end of the drive shaft that you see in some of the photos.

I have also satisfied myself that the dial indicator readings are reliable by swap them back and forth as JPG suggested.

Because this is something of "a game" for me, I have also done these checks using my other dial indicators (the home brew) and the MAG-DRO with a digital caliper. Believe me, the readings are accurate.

What the SuperBar brings to this procedure is a dial indicator that is reliably seated in the miter track with no deviation caused by slop in the miter track.

I am not striving for greater accuracy. I am looking for ease of alignment and repeatability. Miter track slop makes both of those doubtful.

I appreciate the feedback.
Thanks Dusty. Yeah, as long as you are swapping them to compare then I expect it should be okay. I just didn't know if there is any ariation between Superbar 1 and Superbar 2 that had to be accounted for with your procedure.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
Post Reply