No, the previous photo is not sideways.
Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
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- dusty
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Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
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Dusty
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Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
In the second pic the Wixey is attached to what would be the bottom of the way tube on a standard Mark setup in vertical mode. So the angle it is reading is not what we'd call the rotation angle, or how far the ways are rotated. A couple ways to understand that:
A) If you actually rotated the ways with the Wixey here it would read ~180 at the horizontal position because it was zeroed on top of the bench tubes. So the actual angle of bench tube to way tube is 180 - 91.3 = 88.7.
B) If you moved the Wixey to the other side of the tube it would read 88.7 degrees.
C) From the viewer's perspective, the way tubes are rotated CCW (aka anti-CW) but the Wixey is showing CW rotation.
- David
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
If you go back to page 4 in this discussion you will see Mike’s original set of photos you re-posted above, but his second photo was posted sideways. When I made my comment above I thought my post included the two original photos to demonstrate what I was talking about. I forgot to do a preview to make sure my post was clear. I’m sorry to have added to the confusion.
Thank you to Dusty for re-posting the two photos, with the second one correctly oriented, to make the point I had tried to make, that the second photo shows the Wixey incorrectly oriented on the way tube.
Marc Jones
Model 10ER (1952), s/n: 72883 (MickyD restored in 2009/10) / Variable Speed Changer / A-34 Jigsaw / Jointer-Shaper Fence
Mark 5 Model 500 (1955), s/n: 309828 (MickyD restored in 2008/09) / Magna Jigsaw Model 610, s/n 65001 / Yuba 11” Bandsaw Model 630, s/n 39807 / Magna Jointer Model 620, s/n 17792 (restored in 2021) / Magna 6” Belt Sander Model 640, s/n 13742 (to be restored)
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DC3300 Dust Collector (circa 1998)
Model 10ER (1952), s/n: 72883 (MickyD restored in 2009/10) / Variable Speed Changer / A-34 Jigsaw / Jointer-Shaper Fence
Mark 5 Model 500 (1955), s/n: 309828 (MickyD restored in 2008/09) / Magna Jigsaw Model 610, s/n 65001 / Yuba 11” Bandsaw Model 630, s/n 39807 / Magna Jointer Model 620, s/n 17792 (restored in 2021) / Magna 6” Belt Sander Model 640, s/n 13742 (to be restored)
Professional Planer Model M5082, s/n 003918
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- dusty
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Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Just to nitpick your comments, there is no right or wrong way to position the Wixey/AngleCube. It will do its thing no matter how it is positioned. The trick is understanding ALL of the symbology on the display. These little idiosyncrasies are what distinguishes one brand from the next. For this discussion the AngleCube is my hands down favorite.Majones1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:02 amIf you go back to page 4 in this discussion you will see Mike’s original set of photos you re-posted above, but his second photo was posted sideways. When I made my comment above I thought my post included the two original photos to demonstrate what I was talking about. I forgot to do a preview to make sure my post was clear. I’m sorry to have added to the confusion.
Thank you to Dusty for re-posting the two photos, with the second one correctly oriented, to make the point I had tried to make, that the second photo shows the Wixey incorrectly oriented on the way tube.
I find it best in situations like this to attach the angle gauge to a "reference surface", to zero it there, and without detaching it put it through the paces. In this case, attach it to the way tube when it is horizontal, zero it and then rotate toward the vertical position. As you approach vertical move in very small increments and simply watch the gauge closely. It is at this point that the AngleCube becomes my favorite (that and it is backlit).
Bottom Line: Doing this it is impossible to get from zero degrees to 91.3 degrees without passing through vertical (90 degrees).
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- JPG
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Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
OK folks. Get ready. Observations on a 1962 Goldie.
Conditions:
Adhered to the criteria Dusty mentioned earlier
1) Reference taken with the in this case the anglecube on top of the lowered way tube.
2) Raised 'measurement' taken with anglecube at the same location on the now almost vertical way tube.
Hinge end to the right in pix.
Floor must be level! Zeroing anglecube not necessary. And raised to drill press mode and lock screw tightened. Note the anglecube is still displaying in normal top up orientation. This indicates the cube has rotated less than 90 °.
Note also the 'up arrow' on the 'left' side indicating the cube has been rotated left side up or CW.
Had the way tube been over the center rotated(>90°) the cube display would have become inverted(upside down) and would be indicating similarly an angle near 90° and the 'up arrow' would have shifted to the right side up or CCW. Left/right are as defined from the normal reading viewpoint in each case.
Myth (raised tubes are over the center(>90°) BUSTED!
A detailed(no pix) description of anglecube display indications is at viewtopic.php?p=288252#p288252
That thread also has some pix by Dusty of some of those 'conditions' using a newer model.
Conditions:
Adhered to the criteria Dusty mentioned earlier
1) Reference taken with the in this case the anglecube on top of the lowered way tube.
2) Raised 'measurement' taken with anglecube at the same location on the now almost vertical way tube.
Hinge end to the right in pix.
Floor must be level! Zeroing anglecube not necessary. And raised to drill press mode and lock screw tightened. Note the anglecube is still displaying in normal top up orientation. This indicates the cube has rotated less than 90 °.
Note also the 'up arrow' on the 'left' side indicating the cube has been rotated left side up or CW.
Had the way tube been over the center rotated(>90°) the cube display would have become inverted(upside down) and would be indicating similarly an angle near 90° and the 'up arrow' would have shifted to the right side up or CCW. Left/right are as defined from the normal reading viewpoint in each case.
Myth (raised tubes are over the center(>90°) BUSTED!
A detailed(no pix) description of anglecube display indications is at viewtopic.php?p=288252#p288252
That thread also has some pix by Dusty of some of those 'conditions' using a newer model.
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╟JPG ╢
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
╟JPG ╢
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
I don't see a busted myth. I just see two different machines (Dusty's and JPG's), probably from different errors, with two different readings, neither of which is 90 degrees. Dusty's appears over-rotated and JPG's appears under-rotated.
Whether either condition represents the way these machines were intended to be manufactured or whether the lack of 90 rotation has to do with wear and tear is anybody's guess.
Slight over-rotation at least makes some sense from a safety perspective in my opinion. Under-rotation does not make any sense, in my opinion.
Whether either condition represents the way these machines were intended to be manufactured or whether the lack of 90 rotation has to do with wear and tear is anybody's guess.
Slight over-rotation at least makes some sense from a safety perspective in my opinion. Under-rotation does not make any sense, in my opinion.
Gale's Law: The bigger the woodworking project, the less the mistakes show in any photo taken far enough away to show the entire project!
- JPG
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Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
OK Al. Get down and do some serious detailed thinking. Yes there is much confusion in all these different scenarios.
BUT close examination AND complete understanding of what those angle thingies are 'saying' is crucial.
ALL the pix in this thread when properly interpreted indicate ALL of the machines do NOT overrotate.
As for common sense safety thinking, how about slightly under rotating places the lock screw against the side of the dimple and any lowering force will increase that pressure as long as the screw is below the widest part of the dimple. That implies the lock screw is pushing the casting down towards the base.
It has been demonstrated that any angle greater than about 75° is already 'over the center of gravity' so over 90° is moot!
BUT close examination AND complete understanding of what those angle thingies are 'saying' is crucial.
ALL the pix in this thread when properly interpreted indicate ALL of the machines do NOT overrotate.
As for common sense safety thinking, how about slightly under rotating places the lock screw against the side of the dimple and any lowering force will increase that pressure as long as the screw is below the widest part of the dimple. That implies the lock screw is pushing the casting down towards the base.
It has been demonstrated that any angle greater than about 75° is already 'over the center of gravity' so over 90° is moot!
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╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝
Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝
Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
- dusty
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Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Not Busted! Not Busted at all. In that vertical position place a thinwasher in the "landing zone" and show us what the AngleCube reads. Better than that - put three thin washers there and display the readings, then take one washer out and display the readings, then another - you get the idea.JPG wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:07 am OK folks. Get ready. Observations on a 1962 Goldie.
Conditions:
Adhered to the criteria Dusty mentioned earlier
1) Reference taken with the in this case the anglecube on top of the lowered way tube.
2) Raised 'measurement' taken with anglecube at the same location on the now almost vertical way tube.
Hinge end to the right in pix.
Floor must be level! Zeroing anglecube not necessary.
reference horizontal top of way tube.jpg
And raised to drill press mode and lock screw tightened.
raised on 'top' of way tube near vertical.jpg
Note the anglecube is still displaying in normal top up orientation. This indicates the cube has rotated less than 90 °.
Note also the 'up arrow' on the 'left' side indicating the cube has been rotated left side up or CW.
Had the way tube been over the center rotated(>90°) the cube display would have become inverted(upside down) and would be indicating similarly an angle near 90° and the 'up arrow' would have shifted to the right side up or CCW. Left/right are as defined from the normal reading viewpoint in each case.
Myth (raised tubes are over the center(>90°) BUSTED!
A detailed(no pix) description of anglecube display indications is at viewtopic.php?p=288252#p288252
That thread also has some pix by Dusty of some of those 'conditions' using a newer model.
I'll be waiting. BTW - I did this three or four days ago when Mike and I began our exchange.
Yes, CG is several degrees before you get to vertical. Exactly where it is depends on where the mass (headstock, carriage and table) are located. The closer the mass is to the hinge, the lower the CG.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
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Dusty
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Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
I have not been following this thread that closely because I don't have a shorty and/or dedicated drillpress. IF it helps, I thought I would post pics from my Mark V just to give another datapoint. It is very similar to the results that JPG posted for his. I have a very slight under-rotation at about 89.5°. For my intents and purposes, I am going to call this close enough to 90° and good enough. With this, I am able to get a main table at 0.1°, though my stop for the main table might need a little adjusting. I just assumed that all Mark V's were like mine, so all of this talk about a design intent for a 1° over-rotation is over my head. Why wouldn't Shopsmith design it for 90°, or as close as they can design to it?
Horizontal: Vertical: Main Table in drill press mode (vertical mode above):
Horizontal: Vertical: Main Table in drill press mode (vertical mode above):
RF Guy
Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
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Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
- dusty
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Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
I'll challenge you as well. With your Mark V in the drill press mode, position a flat washer or two in the landing zone and double check your readings as you remove the spacers. This was an interesting exercise for me. I ended up using a half dozen or so washers just to see what would happen.RFGuy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:37 am I have not been following this thread that closely because I don't have a shorty and/or dedicated drillpress. IF it helps, I thought I would post pics from my Mark V just to give another datapoint. It is very similar to the results that JPG posted for his. I have a very slight under-rotation at about 89.5°. For my intents and purposes, I am going to call this close enough to 90° and good enough. With this, I am able to get a main table at 0.1°, though my stop for the main table might need a little adjusting. I just assumed that all Mark V's were like mine, so all of this talk about a design intent for a 1° over-rotation is over my head. Why wouldn't Shopsmith design it for 90°, or as close as they can design to it?
P.S. On the center of gravity, when I did this test above, at about 73° is where the center of gravity took over for my Mark V when raising to vertical causing it to tip over on its own above this angle. Of course, I had my main table extended (for drill press mode), so I am sure this angle is dependent on where the headstock is locked down as well as the carriage and main table positions.
Horizontal:
IMG_6959.jpg
Vertical:
IMG_6960_2.jpg
Main Table in drill press mode (vertical mode above):
IMG_6961.jpg
The Main Table alignment is really part of a totally different discussion because it is adjustable.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
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Dusty
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