10ER Way Tubes - Use them on PowerPro or dedicated drill press?

[jsburger]

OK, I've read many times here about 10ER tubes are heavier. Just how much is the weight difference?

As JPG said the wall thickness is 3/16" as opposed to the MK V tubes that are 1/8" thick. When you get them in your hands there is a significant difference in my opinion. At the end if the day does it really make any difference since the MK V thin tubes have been around for 60+ years? Probably not, but more is always better and I will use them every time. I have them on my full size MK 7 Power pro and my dedicated MK V drill press.

One thing to remember, the 10ER in it's later years had the thin 1/8" tubes. So if someone is selling 10ER tubes you need to ask if they are thick tubes if that is what you want.

I had never heard about 10ER's with 1/8" tube walls. It got me curious enough to go downstairs and measure my two 10E/R machines. The oldest one is a very early 10E with a sand-cast headstock, serial number 1750, which dates it to 1947. The first year of manufacture. Tube wall thickness measures 0.175".

My "newer" 10ER is serial number 85493, dating it to 1952. Tube wall thickness measures 0.210".

When did the thinner tubes appear?

Thick 10ER tubes are definitely 3/16" wall thickness which is 0.1875". Your 10E should definitely have thick tubes so I don't know why you measured only 0.175". Thin tubes are 1/8" just like the MK V and that is 0.125". As for your other machine again I don't know why you measured 0.210". That is over 3/16". The only thing I can think of is that sometimes the tubes have a small burr around the inside edge and that caused your measurement to be too large.

My understanding of when is that the last 10ER's produced had the thin wall tubes right when the first MK V's came out. Again just a guess but as the 10ER production wound down and the MK V production ramped up they used MK V tubes on the last 10ER's built probably because they ran out of the thick tubes.

[beeg]

The really interesting thing to me is that you can buy the tubes in whatever length you want, and with even heavier walls .. all the way up to 0.375. Stretch 10ER lathe, anyone?

BUT what is the outside surface like?

[BuckeyeDennis]

The really interesting thing to me is that you can buy the tubes in whatever length you want, and with even heavier walls .. all the way up to 0.375. Stretch 10ER lathe, anyone?

BUT what is the outside surface like?

I'm under the impression, possibly incorrect, that 10ER tubes are plain DOM (drawn over mandrel) tubes.

The one manufacturer specifies OD tolerance as -0.000", +0.006". Regarding surface finish, they state "The excellent surface finish of Tubular Products’ DOM tubing can substantially reduce finishing costs of many parts and, with the added advantage of close concentricity, may eliminate finishing operations altogether."

DOM tubes can be centerless-ground if a better finish is required, but I don't believe that either of my 10E/R machines have ground way tubes.

[jsburger]

OK, I've read many times here about 10ER tubes are heavier. Just how much is the weight difference?

As JPG said the wall thickness is 3/16" as opposed to the MK V tubes that are 1/8" thick. When you get them in your hands there is a significant difference in my opinion. At the end if the day does it really make any difference since the MK V thin tubes have been around for 60+ years? Probably not, but more is always better and I will use them every time. I have them on my full size MK 7 Power pro and my dedicated MK V drill press.

One thing to remember, the 10ER in it's later years had the thin 1/8" tubes. So if someone is selling 10ER tubes you need to ask if they are thick tubes if that is what you want.

I had never heard about 10ER's with 1/8" tube walls. It got me curious enough to go downstairs and measure my two 10E/R machines. The oldest one is a very early 10E with a sand-cast headstock, serial number 1750, which dates it to 1947. The first year of manufacture. Tube wall thickness measures 0.175".

My "newer" 10ER is serial number 85493, dating it to 1952. Tube wall thickness measures 0.210".

When did the thinner tubes appear?

I just came from the shop and checked the the tubes on the two 10ER's that are out there. S/N 69356 which is a 1952 has thick tubes. I measured one (the other one had a bur on the inside) and it was 0.203. The other machine is S/N 83974 also 1952. Interestingly it is older than yours but it has thin tubes. They are actually 0.117 which is slightly under 1/8". Your research on tub wall thickness tolerances seems to be right on.

My other two 10ER's S/N 58365/1951 and S/N 38728/1950 both have thick tubes. I didn't measure them because they are in the garage and my truck is in the way.

[jsburger]

The really interesting thing to me is that you can buy the tubes in whatever length you want, and with even heavier walls .. all the way up to 0.375. Stretch 10ER lathe, anyone?

BUT what is the outside surface like?

I'm under the impression, possibly incorrect, that 10ER tubes are plain DOM (drawn over mandrel) tubes.

The one manufacturer specifies OD tolerance as -0.000", +0.006". Regarding surface finish, they state "The excellent surface finish of Tubular Products’ DOM tubing can substantially reduce finishing costs of many parts and, with the added advantage of close concentricity, may eliminate finishing operations altogether."

DOM tubes can be centerless-ground if a better finish is required, but I don't believe that either of my 10E/R machines have ground way tubes.

Somewhere in the recesses of my mind I remember someone saying the 10ER tubes were centerless ground. It was probably Skip over on the Yahoo group. Those machines were built to very tight tolerances. There is a 50's magazine article (Popular Mechanics?) where the author visited the Magna factory. He said the quill run-out tolerance was 0.001 and every machine was measured and recorded and the typical run out he saw was half a thou (0.0005). There are a lot of pictures that show 10ER's machining parts to make 10ER's. In fact they were used to make parts for the MK V.

[jsburger]

OK, I've read many times here about 10ER tubes are heavier. Just how much is the weight difference?

As JPG said the wall thickness is 3/16" as opposed to the MK V tubes that are 1/8" thick. When you get them in your hands there is a significant difference in my opinion. At the end if the day does it really make any difference since the MK V thin tubes have been around for 60+ years? Probably not, but more is always better and I will use them every time. I have them on my full size MK 7 Power pro and my dedicated MK V drill press.

One thing to remember, the 10ER in it's later years had the thin 1/8" tubes. So if someone is selling 10ER tubes you need to ask if they are thick tubes if that is what you want.

I had never heard about 10ER's with 1/8" tube walls. It got me curious enough to go downstairs and measure my two 10E/R machines. The oldest one is a very early 10E with a sand-cast headstock, serial number 1750, which dates it to 1947. The first year of manufacture. Tube wall thickness measures 0.175".

My "newer" 10ER is serial number 85493, dating it to 1952. Tube wall thickness measures 0.210".

When did the thinner tubes appear?

OK, this is the third time I have tried to reply so if a bunch of the same posts show up I apologies.

Anyhow, I just looked at Skip's S/N list. Thin tubes started showing up around the time of my S/N 83974. Then there was a bubble of thick tubes around your S/N 85493. Then after that they are all thin. Who knows but, it is fun to try and figure out what happened.

[JPG]

Well this has been an interesting ride!

[jsburger]

Well this has been an interesting ride!

It certainly has!

Tomorrow I will back the truck out so I can get to the two in the garage. I remember that when I first got them (both from the same estate) and both with speed changers for $175 for both and one with a 3/4 HP motor, I thought one had thin tubes but after checking a second time the tubes had a chamfer machined on the inside edge that made them look thinner at first glance. I will take a picture and measure. Of course I am getting old so the memory may not be correct. We will see.

[BuckeyeDennis]

I took another look at the tube surface finishes on my machines -- I'd never looked at them really closely before. Both machines are still in unrestored condition. The 10E appears to have a fair amount of use, but almost no rust. The 10ER shows virtually no wear, but has light rust on the top surfaces of the steel parts, including the tubes.

I figured that if the tubes were centerless ground, there should be fine grinding scratches running radially around the tubes. And what I found was ... drum roll, please ... I couldn't tell with my naked eye.

So I hunted down my handy-dandy cheapo USB microscope, toted the laptop down to the workshop, and took these images. They clearly show radial scratches on the OD.

This first pic is of the 1947 10E.

10E tube closeup.JPG (1.52 MiB) Viewed 4345 times

This next one is of 1952 10ER, at the very end where the tail bracket mounts. You can see the longitudinal scratches from the bracket, superimposed on the grinding marks. This spot was underneath the tail bracket, apparently protected by the bracket from whatever rusted the top surfaces.

10ER tube closeup 1.JPG (1.38 MiB) Viewed 4345 times

And finally, here's a shot of the underside of the 10ER front tube, taken near the headstock end. There's a dusting of rust, but no wear that I can see.

10ER tube closeup 2.JPG (1.51 MiB) Viewed 4345 times

So, I think it's safe to say that 10E/R tubes are centerless ground. For equivalent quality, the cost of grinding would have to be added to the price of the plain DOM tubes available online. Which only serves to make a vintage 10ER look like an even bigger bargain.

[JPG]

Orrrrr some PO turned them to 'polish'/derust.