I am a bit confused on this one from woodpecker .

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jsburger
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Re: I am a bit confused on this one from woodpecker .

Post by jsburger »

You only need one square corner the way he did it. At around the 7:00 mark he squared one corner. As long as you make all the cross cuts from that reference edge (the short edge after the parallel cuts) you don't care if the 4th side is square. That side was cut off using the square side as the reference edge. However he never said that you must reference your cross cuts all from the square reference edge.
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Ed in Tampa
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Re: I am a bit confused on this one from woodpecker .

Post by Ed in Tampa »

reible wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:53 pm I remember a time when the trend was to use the plywood because it had a nice factory edge and would be pretty darn square. Of course it was all made in the good old USA and profit while important wasn't job one. Those days are long gone.

The thing is you use plywood for various projects and as such how you treat the subject is dependent on that. If I were say to make a bunch of shelf units for my garage that would be very different then some fancy shelf for in the house. If I were using the plywood to make a jig for some sort of use where I would be depending on the jig for years to come, well I would treat it different then something I slopped together to get me in the ball park.

So if one is making say kitchen cabinets, they have a pretty standard size and you don't really have to deal with trying to use every square inch of the sheet, and in fact you will not be able to. The scrap of course can be used for bracing or kick plates or what ever but the parts you want to keep good are the important ones. It is assumed that the factory edge has at the very least has some damage and at worse some bad damage. You want to clear that away and that is most often cut one. It is taken off a long edge and is in the order of 5 or 6 mm or about a 1/4". You do a quick reference off the factory edge to do this.

Now that you have a clean edge to work from you do the other long cuts keeping them parallel to that edge or last cut. At this point you don't car if they are square to any other edge, just parallel.

Next come the cross cuts. Again you use those parallel cut edges and then square off of them. If you have say an MFT then you have a known clean edge against a fence and a track that is 90 degrees so again you trim an edge and then the length measurement is taken off that edge. If you are using a guide saw system then they have rail squares that serve that function.

Keep in mind that actual measurement is not as critical as the parts all being the same. Of course you do need to be close with the actual measurements but as a wood worker you know that.

As in all woodworking some skills are needed. When I first stated using the guided say system I was surprised a few times with things not being as perfect as I would have liked. The good news was that I soon was getting results that rivaled my table saw skills and soon surpassed them on panel sized pieces. Breaking down sheet goods has never been easier or better then where I am now.

Guided saw system could replace table saws for some people but I like to have both. I have to say my shopsmith gets a LOT less use now then before I went down the Festool path but that is a good thing for me. Especially when it comes to dust collection......... one of my messy jobs now is drilling..........or using the table saw.

I'm totally sold on this guided saw system and would NEVER want to go back to just a table saw for panels. I have several straight edge circular saw guide system and I never use them anymore, should part with them I guess as I just can't see ever wanting to use them ever again. Like wise I have a few circular saws and I don't use them much either, no construction project going on which is what they are good for, not breaking down sheet goods.

The bad part is the cost of this version of panel cutting, not for everyone's budget.

Ed
Very interesting and informative post Ed, thanks for posting it!😊
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Re: I am a bit confused on this one from woodpecker .

Post by DLB »

Ed in Tampa wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:01 am
reible wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:53 pm ...
The bad part is the cost of this version of panel cutting, not for everyone's budget.

Ed
Very interesting and informative post Ed, thanks for posting it!😊
Not currently in my budget, for sure. But I have questions for Ed R. And I'm at least interested in a track router. Take the MFT out of the equation, cuz there was not one in the video unless you count sawhorses(?) and a piece of sacrificial foam(?) These Woodpecker add-ons ($479 in the case) for an already relatively expensive track saw give it some ability to make repetitive parallel cuts. That's something I consider a table saw to be, inherently, pretty darn good at. Do these look like a must-have accessory? Without them, how hard is it to set a track saw for an accurate parallel cut? Obviously you use an MFT, so in your case would you use these Woodpecker add-ons if you had them?

Note - As a table saw guy I've just learned that I have a different definition of the phrase 'breaking down sheet goods' compared to the track saw guys. For clarity - to me it means making one rip or crosscut to get the product down to a size and weight I can manage on my table saw, where I will likely do all of the final cuts. If I buy the product at a big box store I probably have that cut done on their panel saw, but for more serious work I'm on my own with tools I own. However that cut is made, it will not be a final cut.

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Re: I am a bit confused on this one from woodpecker .

Post by RFGuy »

DLB wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:08 pm These Woodpecker add-ons ($479 in the case) for an already relatively expensive track saw give it some ability to make repetitive parallel cuts. That's something I consider a table saw to be, inherently, pretty darn good at. Do these look like a must-have accessory? Without them, how hard is it to set a track saw for an accurate parallel cut? Obviously you use an MFT, so in your case would you use these Woodpecker add-ons if you had them?

- David
David,

I'll let Ed answer this one for you, but I just wanted to point out that the Woodpeckers products are an ultra-premium category so they are the most expensive. Many tracksaw users like TSO products which are roughly half the cost of the Woodpeckers equivalents and benchdogs.co.uk is around half the cost of the TSO products. So, there are cheaper alternatives out there for the same functions. Keep in mind the parallel guide system makes cuts more precise, but the same can be accomplished by measuring and marking then moving the track to the mark. In other words, these accessories just make the use of the tracksaw easier. You can still accomplish the same thing with a tracksaw and track by themself.
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reible
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Re: I am a bit confused on this one from woodpecker .

Post by reible »

Perhaps if we back up a bit we can address more questions.

The guided saw system is basically a saw and a track. In its basic form you can measure and mark dimensions then lay the track on the work piece aligning it to the established cut line which is a replaceable portion of the track. The first time you get a track you make a cut and that establishes the location of the cut on the track side. The track has some strips of grip material that holds it in place and for the most part it doesn't need to be clamped. It does have provisions for clamping and for operations like routing you do need to clamp it in place.

The saw part of the equation adjusts for a snug fit to the rail and there is no slop when correctly adjusted. The blade for saws like I have use a fixed width blade that is 2.2mm so which ever blade you have on it should within reason be the same as any other blade so the cut line stays where you made it with the first cut. Now saw to saw might be another matter and I have had no experience with that, but I do blade changes without issue so that is golden.

This is a useful system but is limited by how accurate you measure each time and if you are doing a pile of parts there are limits to how good the part to part cutting will be. Again it is often more important to have all the parts the same rather then them being a nudge off here and there. This is where the various attachments to the rail come in to their own. I got a cheap version first and guess what the stops would get bumped and move! BTW that company went away pretty quickly, more then likely others had the same experience.

Festool has their version of these and I own them. They do indeed work but I found them to be heavy and a little awkward to use, more having to deal with how I was trying to use them then there being a flaw in the system. They were my second set of these.

Next I got the woodpecker version and they are my favorite. You can have the length of track go from shot to long by adding sections, and I added the metric versions as well so add another what ever that costs???. They are easy to set up and seem to hold settings very well. I also like how they handled the cutting of pieces that are not as wide as the track.

So if you add the parallel of your choice then you can cut things parallel to each other but you still lack the ability to make right angle cuts. They make rail squares to do that function. Again there are many out on the market and I happened to have purchased the TSO version because of the single latch design they came up with. Now there are maybe a half dozen people selling decent ones and if I had to pick one now I think I might have opted for the bench dog MkII one, but since I don't have one on my shopping list I can say for sure what else is out there.

So with the addition of a rail square you have a basic way to make just about any cuts you want. But that is only a way. I know you are not so interested in the MFT but I think you should at least understand what that bring to the table(yes table).

Festool sells MFT's but you can also make your own, just go to a company that does cnc work or shop online for just a top and build from there. It will have 20mm holes on 96mm spacing and the rows and columns are at 90 degrees to each other so now you can go with dogs, the collection of these are plentiful, and you can then set up a row of two or more to serve as a fence and then another pair in a row for the rail to go against and you how have another way to make cuts. Of course they are other systems out there that make this a very flexible way to go. I could go on for a long while and only cover a few of those systems...... The table also then gives you the ability to clamp work pieces down for other operations and again this has a lot of options. I have a few differnt MFT like tops that I use in the shop. My drill press table is done in this style as will as an extension table for my shopsmith that mounts a router table/oscillating sander and again this only scratches the surface.

So next let's address routing. They make attachments for routers that let them use the track as a guide. You will have to clamp the track. I'm only familiar with the festool offering and while it might be possible to get an odd collection of parts to work together it is unlikely to be as nice as just buying a system that is made to do what you want. Some where here I have shown how I cut dado's with this set up on my MFT, but again there are many ways to do this and since I have a MFT it is easiest way for me to go.

OK now that I have bored you to near death feel free to ask more questions or for more details about subjects covered.

Ed
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Re: I am a bit confused on this one from woodpecker .

Post by Hobbyman2 »

That is a lot of information Ed , thank you , I dont personally work with enough sheet goods to justify the investment but one would sure look good on the shelf , If I were to use enough sheet goods I believe I would have one , its easier to move a saw on a large board than a large board on a saw most of the time . my guess would be with a little adaptation these can also be used for making jigs and cutting paneling .
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Ed in Tampa
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Re: I am a bit confused on this one from woodpecker .

Post by Ed in Tampa »

Don't forget the track saw does an excellent job jointing a board to a perfectly straight edge. Also track saws are very easy for taper cuts. Added benefits excellent dust collection and they are rated to be a far safer way to cut.
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Re: I am a bit confused on this one from woodpecker .

Post by DLB »

Thank you Ed, for the very detailed description. I wasn't bored at all. ;) For many like myself that have not (or cannot) rationalize the cost Vs. benefit of track saws it is great to have the details. And it's important to evaluate what add-ons one "needs" because the add-ons may be somewhat brand-specific, and ultimately paint a clearer picture of the price.

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Re: I am a bit confused on this one from woodpecker .

Post by RFGuy »

Having taken the plunge (pun intended) a year ago, I can say it is one of those things where you don't fully appreciate it until you have it. If you have never used a tracksaw you may understand the high level principles of it, but until you use it firsthand you won't fully understand/appreciate the nuances of what you can do with it. To me, what a tracksaw gives is convenience. Working with sheet goods is a PIA without one. If you already have a cabinetmaker grade tablesaw in your shop for sheet goods, then continue to use it and enjoy it. For the rest of us a tracksaw is money well spent for our small shops...however the accessories to go with the tracksaw will depend on your budget.
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Re: I am a bit confused on this one from woodpecker .

Post by thunderbirdbat »

Not all of the track saws are identical nor are the add-ons interchangeable. My son has a Grizzly version that the tracks are wider (maybe 1/8-1/4") and have the two channels for the track connectors on the bottom instead of one on top and one on the bottom like the Festool/Makita version but are the same width as them. While my Makita track saw will fit on the track the initial cut by the Makita would cut the aluminum track width narrower. He can use my tack but the saw is wider than the track and I do not know if a new splinter guard strip would be wide enough for his saw to set the blade cut position. Other saws have different channel arrangements and sizes. DeWalt track saws will not work with the Makita/Festool systems as the channels are different sizes and in different locations. Cost can vary quite a bit depending on brand name of the track saw. I believe my son's Grizzly complete system (saw, two 55 inch tracks and connectors) and an extra blade cost less than half of just my saw and one 55 in track when he got them on sale. Most of the commercial add-ons sold are for the Festool/Makita track saws. There are also add-ons for systems that people use 3D printers to make/sell that are cheaper than the name brand options and are available for some of the different makes. I found a 3D printed square and router add-on option that is specific for the router I have on Etsy for my track saw (Makita version).

I usually rough cut with the track saw then cut to final dimension on the SS to make sure all the parts are the same size. That said when I want to cut just a couple of dados or rabbets, it is faster to use the track saw and a router plane then set up a dado blade on the SS.
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