Finishing maple

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Ed in Tampa
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Post by Ed in Tampa »

Greenvilleguy wrote:Ed, Shellac flakes usally are sold in three "colors": Blonde, Orange and Garnett. Since this is the natural color, variation does occur.
DuH!!! I believe I knew that but I simply wasn't thinking. Talk about having a stupid moment! For some reason I was thinking of garnet sanding paper and trying to figure how that related to shellac.

When I was a kid in shop class we called had four colors that I seem to remember, white (bleached) clear amber and natural. The natural was what I think is garnet and was a dark coffee or tea color. Shop teacher told us amber shellac was a more refined natural and clear was the highest refined. White or what we called bleached was just that bleached

Now that we are talking about the same thing, I always thought garnet shellac as reddish brown, however I went looking in the internet and some people are referring to it as more of pure brown. I don't think I ever used garnet shellac so I don't know.

Can someone give me an opinion, does garnet shellac carry red highlights?

Thanks
chettrick
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Post by chettrick »

I turned some spalted maple last week and used Bullseye French Polish Shellac. It did not turn black or a dark color except where the spalting was at.
james.miller
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Post by james.miller »

Has anyone tried using Chewing Tobacco stain? It is a warm honey color and very nice on softer woods.

I have seen a demonstration of its use years ago. It's made with rope style chewing tobacco soaked in alcohol for a few days. Strain it thoroughly through cheesecloth to remove any chunks of tobacco which will leave dark spots on the wood.

I've never tried it but the stained wood I saw was very nice.

Jim in Tucson
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Ed in Tampa
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Post by Ed in Tampa »

Well I thought I had a easy solution to my Maple problem. I applied shellac and then Chestnut gel stain. What a riot!!!!! The shellac did exactly what I wanted, it prevented the maple from blotching. However the stain really becomes a paint with very very little of it effecting the shellac.

Therefore everything is on the surface and it is nearly impossible to even it out. If you wipe most off (which leaves a very pleasing color) it tends to telegraph every thing. Even the slightest touch of the wiping rag in the wrong place and you have a unsightly blemish. Wipe it off and you have another further up.

I found I needed to start of the board wipe the full lenght with the grain then carefully do a line next to the first and so on. However that is easily said except on rails and stiles and raised panels. Now your starting and stopping has to be on the panel and or you going across grain with the wiping.

After about 2 weeks of messing around I did 5 doors and 7 drawer fronts and two cabinets. Frankly doing the best job I know how I was dissatisfied. So using alcohol I stripped the everything back off (nearly 2 days of stripping and resanding) all except 3 drawer fronts and I'm ready to start over.

I would try spraying but I can't get the color match that hand wiping the chestnut stain gives.

Any thought suggesttions?????

One thing I'm thinking about is masking. I found that if I let stain dry I can go back and make a section darker with not wipe marks. My idea is to mask the rails and stiles and raised portion then do the lower plain. Let it dry then do mask the stiles and do the rails and then the stiles. I'm hopping the masking will give me a start and finish point off the wood that will allow the wood section to be perfectly blended.

However this seems like a real long process added to a process that is already really long. Just applying the shellac is a two day process. Now add three levels of masking with time for the stain to dry. Then consider both sides we are talking weeks and weeks.

Help!!!!!!

Ed
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berry
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Shellac

Post by berry »

I'm confused, how can applying shellac take days? Are you mixing your own from flakes - and counting that? Shellac, especially a 'spit' coat, drys in 15-30 minutes, tops.

(I run my flakes through a coffee bean grinder before adding to the alcohol and put it in a warm part of the house, like a shelf that gets sun, that speeds up the mixing. I never buy Bulls Eye. Shellac goes bad in just a couple of months and if you get an old batch, it's a problem.)

I suspect the garnet would be too red for your needs. I use the blonde, as a sealer in most projects, regardless of the finish coat. If you want to try garnet Rockler sells a kit. It' a few grams of flakes and a mixing/storing container with marking on the outside so you can get the 'cut' of shellac you want.

I don't use stain very often so I can't help you but I thought I'd read the gel stains need to penetrate the wood, and with a your shellac sealer, perhaps that's not happening?

If you like the chesnut stain, give their 800 number a call. Sometimes you get a real pro. Keep posting, I gotta get back to work before the boss comes round.
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Bruce
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Post by Bruce »

Ed,
Have you tried Nick's nitric acid trick?
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Ed in Tampa
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Post by Ed in Tampa »

berry wrote:I'm confused, how can applying shellac take days? Are you mixing your own from flakes - and counting that? Shellac, especially a 'spit' coat, drys in 15-30 minutes, tops.

(I run my flakes through a coffee bean grinder before adding to the alcohol and put it in a warm part of the house, like a shelf that gets sun, that speeds up the mixing. I never buy Bulls Eye. Shellac goes bad in just a couple of months and if you get an old batch, it's a problem.)

I suspect the garnet would be too red for your needs. I use the blonde, as a sealer in most projects, regardless of the finish coat. If you want to try garnet Rockler sells a kit. It' a few grams of flakes and a mixing/storing container with marking on the outside so you can get the 'cut' of shellac you want.

I don't use stain very often so I can't help you but I thought I'd read the gel stains need to penetrate the wood, and with a your shellac sealer, perhaps that's not happening?

If you like the chesnut stain, give their 800 number a call. Sometimes you get a real pro. Keep posting, I gotta get back to work before the boss comes round.

Berry
I'm sorry I should have explained my process perhaps a little clearer. I'm using the shellac almost as a clear pore filler. I flood the first coat on and let it dry. It's a heavy coat with fairly long drying time. I then sand it off and brush on a second very light coat. Let that coat dry then do the other side. With drying time this ends up being a two day process.
I want all the alcohol to be gone and the product cured.

Next I lightly sand the piece and apply the stain. The stain needs to dry 24 hours before I can do another coat or the other side. Again I let the pieces sit at least a day before I begin coating with Poly. I always allow a day of drying between coats. After the final poly coat I usually wait a full week or longer do a polish buffing and a coat of wax.

I am using Zinsseer seal coat shellac as it is a dewaxed, and actual 2Lb cut which comes in dated cans. I usually do mix my own shellac if it is going to be the final finish.

I never use stain or at least not in a long long time and I'm beginning to remember why.

I have even thought of tinting the shellac but I'm pretty deep into the process to experiment now.

I had been applying the stain in a liberal coat then allowing it to sit a few minutes and wiping off the excess. This is where I having problems. The gelstain has a funny nature. As you rub off the excess you can go back but only once or twice. If the finish isn't even then, or there is a spot where the rag touched trying to fix it will cause the stain to go tacky and clump. Any rubbing beyond this point and you have a mess.

You can't fix it you either have to allow it to dry or flood the area with stain and begin again. You can't just flood a localized spot you have to flood everything that is fresh stain. It is maddening!!!!!! Believe me.
Greenvilleguy
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Post by Greenvilleguy »

Ed,

Nick's nitric acid "trick" was very interesting, because as I've mentioned in a previous post I've had trouble staining soft maple, pine and birch. They all tend to blotch.

Above in this thread I mentioned that I was going to try and dye some soft maple. Well, I sealed it first with a wash coat (1 lb cut) of freshly mixed garnet shellac. It turned the maple a yellow color - yuk! Then, I added some mission brown dye to some more shellac and tried to add it as a second coat -- like Ed above, it was like trying to paint on the surface. I'm guessing I tried to go too dark too fast.

Anyway, I ended up stripping it all off and starting over with a thin wash coat of shellac followed by some lighter color stain. I've discovered that the lighter the stain, the less pigment it has and more dye. After applying a second coat of stain and three coats of varnish, the color was OK, but still not as brown as I was after.

I'm waiting for one of you to try Nick's nitric acid solution and report back. In the meantime, I going to spring for the extra cost of walnut so I can skip the staining altogether!
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Ed in Tampa
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Post by Ed in Tampa »

Greenvilleguy wrote:Ed,

Nick's nitric acid "trick" was very interesting, because as I've mentioned in a previous post I've had trouble staining soft maple, pine and birch. They all tend to blotch.

Above in this thread I mentioned that I was going to try and dye some soft maple. Well, I sealed it first with a wash coat (1 lb cut) of freshly mixed garnet shellac. It turned the maple a yellow color - yuk! Then, I added some mission brown dye to some more shellac and tried to add it as a second coat -- like Ed above, it was like trying to paint on the surface. I'm guessing I tried to go too dark too fast.

Anyway, I ended up stripping it all off and starting over with a thin wash coat of shellac followed by some lighter color stain. I've discovered that the lighter the stain, the less pigment it has and more dye. After applying a second coat of stain and three coats of varnish, the color was OK, but still not as brown as I was after.

I'm waiting for one of you to try Nick's nitric acid solution and report back. In the meantime, I going to spring for the extra cost of walnut so I can skip the staining altogether!
Greenvilleguy
If I knew where to get some nitric acid I would give it a try. But I'm with you. I will use the walnut next time!!!!!!! The shame of it all is I have a pile of walnut ready to go.

The problem is I took my wife to see some cabinets as Home Depot. The desciption was Cherry with a nutmeg stain (light walnut) with a dark glaze finish. She fell in love with those cabinets, but they are $250 or $300 a linear foot. (cheap price now looking back).

In any case there was no way I could fine to stain cherry to get the look but when I tried maple it seemed to have possibilities. I then went to a cabinet shop and told me that of course the wood was maple. So I used maple. However I never realized how maple stains. That is when I asked for help and Eric of Rock Creek Designs "Ericolson". That solved my blotching problem but now the nature of gel stain is driving me crazy it is so touchy.

I think I going to try to brush it on and brush it out to where I want it. The problem is you have to do this fast because once the stain gets to about the right coverage it becomes sticky and impossible to work further. You can only let it dry and try to fix it or reflood and start again.
Greenvilleguy
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Post by Greenvilleguy »

Well, I found a couple of sources of nitric acid just by "googling". Here is one. http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/10421/SLN1963?gclid=CMLLude78Y4CFQGRPAodJypJFA . I can't vouch for any of them since I haven't used it.
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