How far back do the early Mark 5 serial numbers go??

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jpdalton
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:36 am

How far back do the early Mark 5 serial numbers go??

Post by jpdalton »

I'm in the midst of a restoration/modernization project on Ser# 263705 - pretty excited to have a chance to work on such an early machine, a 1954 model based on the serial number chart maintained by the folks at Shopsmith, Inc.

Recently, I was puzzled to see this image from a Craigslist post in the San Diego area:
IMG_E5890.JPG
IMG_E5890.JPG (896.25 KiB) Viewed 8609 times
I realize it's not a great image, but the serial number of this unit pretty clearly appears to be "250015", which is a range I've never seen on any of the serial number registries. Unfortunately, there were no other images in the posting that would clearly distinguish it as a 1954 model (in working with my 1954, I've seen a few interesting 1954-only features that were modified for future model years).

Does anyone have any background with serial numbers earlier than "263051" from the Shopsmith-maintained chart? Honestly, "250001" would seem to be a logical starting serial number for the new Mark 5s.

Just curious, as it helps me understand just how early a model my 1954 is...
DLB
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Re: How far back do the early Mark 5 serial numbers go??

Post by DLB »

We've had a couple of posts by owners with Serial Numbers lower than 263051, but nothing close to this. A few members have a lot of information on the early history. This thread represents, I think, the collective knowledge:
http://shopsmith.com/ss_forum/viewtopic ... 51#p267650

I don't think that anyone here has great detail on how many units were produced ahead of the release date. I'm sure that any additional information that you can provide on that unit's configuration and history would be much appreciated.

- David
jpdalton
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:36 am

Re: How far back do the early Mark 5 serial numbers go??

Post by jpdalton »

Wish I could provide more insights... I did reach out to the Craigslist poster with no response, and unfortunately our distance (I'm in the Boston area) precluded getting a first-hand look. Hopefully the buyer will appreciate its uniqueness!

Thanks for your response,
J
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chapmanruss
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Re: How far back do the early Mark 5 serial numbers go??

Post by chapmanruss »

Jpdalton asked this on April 30th

Note: J your Mark 5 was made in April 1954 according to the monthly chart.

He said
I'm in the midst of a restoration/modernization project on Ser# 263705 - pretty excited to have a chance to work on such an early machine, a 1954 model based on the serial number chart maintained by the folks at Shopsmith, Inc.

Recently, I was puzzled to see this image from a Craigslist post in the San Diego area:

[See the Picture in his post]

I realize it's not a great image, but the serial number of this unit pretty clearly appears to be "250015", which is a range I've never seen on any of the serial number registries. Unfortunately, there were no other images in the posting that would clearly distinguish it as a 1954 model (in working with my 1954, I've seen a few interesting 1954-only features that were modified for future model years).

Does anyone have any background with serial numbers earlier than "263051" from the Shopsmith-maintained chart? Honestly, "250001" would seem to be a logical starting serial number for the new Mark 5s.

Just curious, as it helps me understand just how early a model my 1954 is...
David, Thanks for posting the link to the earlier thread.

The following information is conclusions I have based on information I have seen and gathered to this point in time.

As jpdalton mentions above there are some distinguishing features that can be seen on the early Mark 5’s. Only the “A” headstock on the Mark 5 which was made until October 1955 had a high-speed lock at the top of the speed dial held in place by the switch. The “A” headstock ended with serial number 312507. Early “A” headstocks used 8 screws to hold the belt cover in place which changed to 6 screws in 1955 before changing to the “B” headstock in October 1955. Early “B” headstocks continued with 6 screws holding the belt cover until reduced to 2 screws in 1957.

Looking at the Vent/Serial Number Plate at the serial number 25OO15 I notice two things about it that are different than the numbers on other Vent/Serial Number Plates. The numbers 25 are followed by what looks more like capital letters OO than numbers and followed by the numbers 15. Even the 1 is different than those in other production serial numbers. This leads me to believe that this Mark 5 was a preproduction machine similar to those Model 10’s made in 1947 with numbers below 1001. The OP’s statement about 250001 being a logical starting serial number has merit. I think that the starting serial number was more likely 260001 and 25OO15 was a preproduction and/or demonstration unit that ended up being sold later. Until seeing this serial number the lowest I had seen was S/N 260407. Again, leading me to believe that 260001 could be the starting serial number for the Mark 5. There have been Demonstration Model 10’s show up having the Logo/Serial Number plate on both sides of the headstock. So, we know that some were sold to the general public at some point. The extra logo plate on the back side was on the audience side for demonstrations. Preproduction Model 10’s were also used in the manufacturing plant. There must have been some preproduction Mark 5’s made as they tested it’s design and function. The question is over time what happened to any existing preproduction Mark 5’s? The Shopsmith/ Magna Tool line changed ownership several times and the plants moved locations over these many years. Did preproduction Mark 5’s get out to the public?

We know from the document Shopsmith Sales History from the Book titled "How to Write a Winning Business Report" By Joseph Mancuso that 11865 Mark 5’s were sold in fiscal year 1953 – 1954. If the Mark 5 serial numbers started at 250001 there would have been 13050 Mark 5’s made by April which would be an extremely large number of units made mostly before being publicly introduced on March 20, 1954. That is considerably more units than were sold in fiscal year 1953 - 1954 and that doesn’t include those made in April and later until the end of that fiscal year. We do not know what was the actual fiscal year used in this document. These comparisons are production vs. sales between the two sets of numbers. Sales didn’t begin until after the Mark 5 introduction in March. Starting at S/N 260001 there would have been 3050 production units made by April which in itself is a large number made but certainly a more reasonable number. If the fiscal year was July to June there would have been 12923 units made with 11865 sold. With shipping and delivery time added that would be a reasonable number of units made vs. units sold for the time period.

If the starting serial number of 260001 is true than S/N 397157 would be the last serial number when the Mark 5 went out of production in 1964 after having sold a total of 137156 units. The actual number could be higher when adding in units such as demos or damaged units not sold. Again, the numbers used are production vs. sales to get to these estimates. Now this does bring me to another problem. I earlier estimated, on the missing serial numbers chart, that the last serial number before the Mark 5 went out of production in 1964 would be about 382425. This was mainly because I estimated the production serial numbers based on the last known starting month of December 1961 and worked only from there comparing the missing years with sales. That was less accurate than if I had compared all of the year’s production vs. sales. If the Mark 5 serial numbers did start at 250001 that would make the ending S/N 387157 and much closer to my earlier estimate than S/N 397157. Either way my estimated chart for the missing Mark 5 serial numbers would be incorrect for 1962 through 1964. Correcting that chart with the ending S/N 397157 would put a known purchase date even further than the current chart's three months after the Mark 5 was made. By that time in the production it was believed the Mark 5’s were being made as they were ordered. There lies the problem. How, if they were not made until ordered, could a Mark 5 be sold that was made three or even more month before (if the chart is corrected) than it was sold if sales occurred before production. If the chart was corrected to the starting S/N 250001 and ending S/N about 387157 it would still make the known order date after the production date. Another problem I am having is when comparing all production with all sales years. The number of units made by July 1961 at 118554 if we use S/N 260001 as the first production serial number vs. 126789 units sold puts them 8235 units behind in production. Changing the starting S/N to 250001 than 128554 units would have been made putting them 1765 units ahead in production. That brings us back to the problem of are sales before production by that time. I am making the comparison to this time because all production numbers are missing from 1962 on. The numbers may work better together if the fiscal year started later than July.

This is the problem trying to recreate lost numbers from more than 55 years ago. Is the key to these inconsistences contained in the old Shopsmith/Magna documents Hans Gold Schmidt passed on the Shopsmith Inc. that Everett now has copies of? Maybe some answers can be found in the old company newsletters the Magpie.

The document Shopsmith Sales History was created by John Folkerth as part of his business plan to show prospective investors to start Shopsmith Inc. in 1972. It was information he received from the Magna American documents in purchasing all rights to the Shopsmith/Magna line of tools. There is no reason to believe that the sales numbers are incorrect other than the lack of fiscal years 1947 - 1948 and 1948 - 1949 not being included. This was the first two years Magna Engineering Corporation was in business and making the Shopsmith Model 10E. Maybe the sales history only needed to show 20 years of sales for the purpose it was created.

While writing the above it had me thinking about the following.

Why did the Mark 5 go out of production in 1964 when it was able to return to production in 1973 under Shopsmith Inc. with continued popularity? I believe that answer lies with the success of the Mark VII introduced by Magna American Corporation in 1963. It was sales of the Mark VII that drove down sales of the Mark 5 until they were almost gone by the end of 1964. The Mark VII survived until 1968 when their sales had dropped to almost zero. The Sawsmith Radial Arm Saw had a similar fate as robust sales from their beginning in fiscal year 1959 – 1960 quickly dropped near the end and it too was out of production in 1968 along with all other major accessories. A final thought as to the fate of the Mark V 520. Will it fade away as more buyers choose the Mark 7 over it. The previous models of the Mark V which include the 500, 505 & 510 are now gone as the newer models became more popular. Is history repeating itself?
Russ

Mark V completely upgraded to Mark 7
Mark V 520
All SPT's & 2 Power Stations
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ metal ends & retractable casters.
Has Speed Changer, 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E's S/N's 1076 & 1077 oldest ones I have restored. Mark 2 S/N 85959 restored. Others to be restored.
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