Shopsmith Model 10's What When and Where

Moderator: admin

User avatar
JPG
Platinum Member
Posts: 32173
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:42 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky (WILDCAT territory)

Re: Shopsmith Model 10's What When and Where

Post by JPG »

chapmanruss wrote:JPG,

Are those the original boards? If so, they are in the best shape I have seen any of them in. The pictures shows a complete assembly for the Wood Extension Table and what I was referring to as the later one. On the bottom view picture it shows how the board, bracket and bar can have slightly different angles. This allows aligning both the fence and wood table to the saw blade. The fence attaches to the extension table using the posts and wing nuts.

When I get a chance I will have to put an early one back together for a picture to post. I will add that here in an edit when done.
As far as I know, yes, but I am at least the third owner. I note the holes ARE the same size at the top surface. but the screw holes do not go all the way through.

BTW it did not look that good when I got it. JPW to the rescue.
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
User avatar
chapmanruss
Platinum Member
Posts: 2036
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:16 pm
Location: near Portland, Oregon

Re: Shopsmith Model 10's What When and Where

Post by chapmanruss »

Let’s talk about the paint colors. There was some discussion in 2016 in a thread titled Serial Numbers and Years that I ran across. It is at the link below.

https://shopsmith.com/ss_forum/maintena ... 0-s10.html

Everett said in his April 18th post
Skip and I had a conversation about 10E 1414 being blue, which it is, and thinking it was repainted as there was some overspray blue in areas. Now that I have done more research and closer inspection of it, I believe that overspray was indeed Magna factory painted.

In support of that belief, I also have a NOS 84-2982 Magna 3 ¾” Face Plate in the box with a segment of the original tape on it, that is an identical blue color that I acquired separately from stock in another state half-way across the country.

The paint matches, and it would not have been painted as NOS if it was not the color of that series of machines made at that time.
Now I cannot say what Everett has/had for a paint color on his Model 10E S/N 1414 but I trust him for that information. The 2 early Model 10E’s I have, S/N 1033 and 1077 were both gray and neither have been painted since the factory as far as I can tell. Clean up has not revealed any extra layers of paint. So why did Everett’s 10E and the lathe face Plate have identical blue paint? Another Shopsmith mystery I thought was worth mentioning.

For anyone wondering about what Everett lists as NOS 84-2982 Magna 3 ¾” Face Plate in the box. The number Everett has there is the Article Number found on the box and not the Part Number which would be 120-1X or 12 290 after November 1951 but before 1964. This is something I plan to get into in my next post here.
Russ

Mark V completely upgraded to Mark 7
Mark V 520
All SPT's & 2 Power Stations
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ metal ends & retractable casters.
Has Speed Changer, 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. 10E S/N 1076 & Mark 2 to be restored plus others.
User avatar
chapmanruss
Platinum Member
Posts: 2036
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:16 pm
Location: near Portland, Oregon

Re: Shopsmith Model 10's What When and Where

Post by chapmanruss »

Numbers, numbers and more numbers. When looking at the printed materials for the Shopsmith tools and related accessories there are different numbers on the documents and packaging. There are Model Numbers, Part Nos., Article Nos., Bulletin Nos. and more. What do they all mean?

The manuals for the Model 10E and 10ER have one or the other or both a Model No. and/or an Article No. Originally this was for who the manual was printed for. Montgomery Ward assigned numbers to the Shopsmith tool based on their numbering system. I have a 10E Owner’s Guide with the name Montgomery Ward at the bottom of the cover but it doesn’t say Model 10E, instead says MODELS 84TMG-2985 and 84TMG-2986A. These were the Montgomery Ward numbers and can be found on later 10ER manuals as Article Nos. with some number variations along with Model 10ER on the cover. A 10E Owner’s Guide I have with Magna Engineering Corporation on the bottom of the cover simply has MODEL 10-E on the cover and was for Shopsmith’s sold at other than Montgomery Ward. Remember Montgomery Ward was the first stores to order and sell the Shopsmith Model 10E so it only makes sense that Magna Engineering Corporation would provide documentation specifically for them. I believe the two Model Numbers above, 84TMG-2985 and 84TMG-2986A are for the 10E being sold with or without a motor.

Looking at the box for the ½” Shaper Adapter Assembly, a common accessory and one I picked out from my collection, it has the original Part No. 129-10X (later 12 232) and Article No. 84-3460 on the box. I understand the part number on the box but is the article number a Montgomery Ward number as it starts with 84. I believe so. These Article Nos. starting with 84 carried through the 1960 when Magna American Corporation was the company making the Shopsmith/Magna tools. Every individual part has a part number and some assemblies have a single part number. The ½” Shaper Adapter Assembly has the part number 129-10X which is for the complete assembly as designated by the X but the four parts that make up the assembly each have a part number too. The Model 10 has over 110 different parts and assemblies each having a part number. More part numbers were used for earlier Model 10’s as, for example, each different location for a set screw had a different part number for the same size set screw. They also listed less assemblies and more individual parts in the earlier units.

Starting with Magna Engineering Corporation tools/parts were made by them for Montgomery Ward carrying their Powr-Kraft name. As an example, the original aluminum Molder Head comes to mind since I have both. The Powr-Kraft version includes a label sticker and does not have the set screw for direct attachment to the Shopsmith Spindle thereby needing an arbor just like the current SS Molder Head to use on the Shopsmith. Of course, these Magna made Powr-Kraft items would have Montgomery Ward numbers.

Manuals along with Bulletins have their own identifying numbers and are instruction sheet(s) that come with tools, parts or accessories. Although early Model 10E Manuals did not have any identifying numbers that related to dates on them, later Model 10 Manuals did. Even now Manuals or other printed materials have their own part number of sorts. My newest Manual is for the Mark 7 and at the bottom of the first page in the notebook is the numbers and information 845620 Rev. A 09/10. 845620 is the Manuals part number with it being revision A done in September of 2010. Other documents in pamphlet format may have this on the back cover. The oldest Manual I have with an identifying date is the Model 10ER Manual copyright 1951 with the coding 160-IER-0151 on the back cover in the lower right corner. I believe it is a January 1951 Manual. Later 10ER Manuals had the actual Month and Year listed on them.

Some of these numbers I have discussed here have nothing to do with the Model 10’s but are later identifying numbers. I could go on but I think you get the idea of why there are so many numbers.
Russ

Mark V completely upgraded to Mark 7
Mark V 520
All SPT's & 2 Power Stations
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ metal ends & retractable casters.
Has Speed Changer, 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. 10E S/N 1076 & Mark 2 to be restored plus others.
RogerWebber
Bronze Member
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:36 pm

Re: Shopsmith Model 10's What When and Where

Post by RogerWebber »

Hi, I am looking at buying a Shopsmith lathe model 10E. Made in California but it was sold in Australia. Serial number 736. There is no A prefix. When I can figure out how to upload a pic I will post a pic of the badge.
User avatar
chapmanruss
Platinum Member
Posts: 2036
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:16 pm
Location: near Portland, Oregon

Re: Shopsmith Model 10's What When and Where

Post by chapmanruss »

Pictures of the badge and the tool itself would be helpful. Information on posting pictures can be found at the link below.

https://www.shopsmith.com/ss_forum/comm ... 19246.html

Identifying the version of the parts will help in telling when it was made. I do not know if entire tools were made in the US and than shipped the Australia but there was a company licensed to make and sell them there. There are Shopsmith tools around the world and have gotten there by many means. A Scroll Saw I once owned is now in Australia.

Below is a picture of Shopsmith Model 10E S/N 899 from Australia also without the A prefix. It has Model 10ER parts but is referred to as a 10E in Australia. There is an additional plate on the headstock for the company that made them in Australia.
Australian 10E S-N 899.jpg
Australian 10E S-N 899.jpg (475.36 KiB) Viewed 3109 times
Russ

Mark V completely upgraded to Mark 7
Mark V 520
All SPT's & 2 Power Stations
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ metal ends & retractable casters.
Has Speed Changer, 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. 10E S/N 1076 & Mark 2 to be restored plus others.
User avatar
chapmanruss
Platinum Member
Posts: 2036
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:16 pm
Location: near Portland, Oregon

Re: Shopsmith Model 10's What When and Where

Post by chapmanruss »

Time and time again I see advertised “Shopsmith for sale” and no picture. Even their descriptions don’t always give much of a clue. Some may say Shopsmith Lathe or Shopsmith Table Saw, they all do that. So, what Shopsmith is actually for sale. Shopsmith has become a generic term for any of the related tools. My first thought is are they selling a Model 10E, a Model 10ER, a Mark 5, a Mark 2, a Mark VII, a Mark V (the change made from 5 to V in early 1980), a Mark V 500, a Mark V 510, a Mark V 505, a Mark V 520, a Mark 7 or best yet the elusive Mark I. These are all Shopsmith tools and is the name they were given no matter which company was making them. It is something that is hard for some sellers to really understand. It can even include the SawSmith Table Saw since that was made by Shopsmith Inc. They simply think a Shopsmith is a Shopsmith. Shopsmith Inc. forming in 1972 to restart making the tool line confused the use of the Shopsmith name even more. At that point the company name was the name put on all of the tools they make. That included the related SPT’s and others. Before Shopsmith Inc. the SPT’s were Magna Tools that could be used on the Shopsmith Tool.

Shopsmith becoming a generic term even has the “clone” tools advertised as a Shopsmith tool. I often see them listed that way even though it is clear in their pictures they say Wood Master or one of the other names. Even the Super Shop which looks nothing like a Shopsmith is often listed as a Shopsmith. Just because the inventor of the Super Shop once worked for the companies making the Shopsmith is no reason to refer to a Super Shop as a Shopsmith.

Adding “vintage” in the ad really doesn’t help describe it either. Vintage is a relative term and has no specific age attached to it, besides the oldest Shopsmith’s are now almost 73 years old. What is “vintage” in tool years. Some may call my 1991 Mark V 520 vintage at 29 years old. Many more would call the 1983 Mark V I refurbished and sold vintage. I guess I must be vintage too or am I just old.

I know this may be a bit off topic and is just me on my soapbox again so I will leave it at that except to say, thank you, if you are a seller looking here on the Shopsmith Forum for information about what you have to sell to get an accurate description for your item. Lastly, please post a picture in your ad.
Russ

Mark V completely upgraded to Mark 7
Mark V 520
All SPT's & 2 Power Stations
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ metal ends & retractable casters.
Has Speed Changer, 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. 10E S/N 1076 & Mark 2 to be restored plus others.
Coltensims
Bronze Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:55 pm

Re: Shopsmith Model 10's

Post by Coltensims »

Good evening,

I’ve appreciated looking into this thread. Thank you for the info on the Shopsmiths! I wanted to ask what everyone’s thoughts were about purchasing a 10e...

I found a guy whose selling a 10e (at least, that’s what I think it is). It seems to be in really great shape! He seems to have taken good care of it through the years. I very interested in it! I never known of these machines before now, and I’m loving the idea of it!

But because it’s one of the earlier models, and it doesn’t seem to be supported by the company Shopsmith (since it was actually sold by another company at the time... which is now out of business)... I’m wondering if everyone thinks that particular model is worth getting or not??

What I’m concerned about are a couple things...
▪️What would I do if I needed to get a replacement part?
▪️Would replacements or repairs be very expensive?
▪️Are there ways to upgrade that model? Such as table saw safety or extensions?

I’m new to woodworking and would really appreciate any input everyone has! Thank you!

Colten
User avatar
chapmanruss
Platinum Member
Posts: 2036
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:16 pm
Location: near Portland, Oregon

Re: Shopsmith Model 10's What When and Where

Post by chapmanruss »

See the comments I already made on your other post. Glad to see you have already read this.
Russ

Mark V completely upgraded to Mark 7
Mark V 520
All SPT's & 2 Power Stations
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ metal ends & retractable casters.
Has Speed Changer, 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. 10E S/N 1076 & Mark 2 to be restored plus others.
User avatar
chapmanruss
Platinum Member
Posts: 2036
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:16 pm
Location: near Portland, Oregon

Re: Shopsmith Model 10's What When and Where

Post by chapmanruss »

One of the things I take note of now when looking at Shopsmiths is any anomalies I see. Sometimes an anomaly turns out to be a change in the tool as I find it more times. The brass spacer I found on serial number 1077 on the drive sleeve assembly behind the pulley is an example as I found it again on S/N 1033. Originally, I thought someone had simply added it to their Model 10E S/N 1077 to keep the pulley from being set to close to the headstock casting. Since I found the exact same brass sleeve on S/N 1033 it was apparent that was a part included on the original Model 10E’s that was later discontinued. I didn’t find it on S/N 4708 or any later 10E’s.

Other anomalies can be more perplexing. Previously I talked about Shopsmith Model 10ER serial number RX5010. The X in the serial number is one anomaly there. The others are the position of the numbers not being in a straight line and the size. I saw this again recently with Model 10ER serial number R62441 for sale. Again, the numbers are not in a straight line and are a different size. See the picture below. The normal Logo/Serial Number Plates look like the numbers are machine stamped but in these rare cases the numbers appear hand stamped for some reason. Out of more than 300 Logo/Serial Number Plates I have seen for Model 10’s these have been the only two stamped that way. Could it be the machined stamped plate was damaged somehow during production and it is a replacement? That seem to be a reasonable explanation but still doesn’t explain the X in the serial number RX5010. It makes me wonder how many Serial Number Plates have this hand stamped anomaly.

_
10ER R62441 Shelton WA.jpg
10ER R62441 Shelton WA.jpg (201.09 KiB) Viewed 863 times
Picture added back - lost during Forum upgrade
Last edited by chapmanruss on Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Russ

Mark V completely upgraded to Mark 7
Mark V 520
All SPT's & 2 Power Stations
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ metal ends & retractable casters.
Has Speed Changer, 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. 10E S/N 1076 & Mark 2 to be restored plus others.
User avatar
everettdavis
Platinum Member
Posts: 2146
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:49 am
Location: Lubbock, TX

Re: Shopsmith Model 10's What When and Where

Post by everettdavis »

chapmanruss wrote:John,

Your guess on that is as good as mine. Your picture is only the second time I have seen a picture of one. The other was one for sale on eBay. It being made at the change from the wood to the metal Extension Table does sound the most reasonable. But cast iron instead of aluminum like the Main Table makes me wonder why would they even try a cast iron one.

When they changed from the original clamp on Quill Collar the first ones were cast iron followed by the aluminum ones used for the rest of the Model 10's production. In the picture below is the cast iron one in the middle. Maybe cast iron was easier to try things out with first.

Quill Collars.jpg
Russ an old-timer out in California who I spoke with said that the original quill collars were from early 1940’s drill presses. As you recall the prototype 10 as submitted for patent had a repurposed drill press Headstock as the power head for the five tools. He said that Magna bought those from the OEM suppliers who made the drill press Hans used in the prototype.

That does make sense as the original machine was made with as much off the shelf components as possible initially. Later on they began fabrication of components using local foundries as suppliers to control costs and ensure production quantities were available to meet Magna demands.

He couldn’t remember the name of the guy at Magna he learned that from many years ago.

I found that tidbit (unverifiable) during the research for my book. Covid-19 has put all of my travel and book research on hold.

Kindest Regards,

Everett
Post Reply