A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

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algale
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by algale »

Very interesting point by Scott of My Growth Rings on why he never puts a fence on a left side extension table. He points out that the assembly has a ton of movement even locked. Check out the video. https://youtu.be/2iQ9GiiwHo4?t=460
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dusty
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

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algale wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:42 am Very interesting point by Scott of My Growth Rings on why he never puts a fence on a left side extension table. He points out that the assembly has a ton of movement even locked. Check out the video. https://youtu.be/2iQ9GiiwHo4?t=460
Yes, when the tie bar is not locked down in the proper position there is either misalignment or unwanted but preventable movement.

Sooo...

Don't operate the machine without the headrest being locked in place and properly centered (aligned). This is just another discussion about the tubes being "twisted" (someone else's words).

A long, long time ago, while working to resolve the perceived interchangeable extension table issue, I made a simple jig to help ensure that the Bench Tubes were properly positioned with respect to the Way Tubes. I guarantee that with this jig captured between the Ways and Bench Tubes at the left end of the machine - there is minimal if any movement.
Bench Tube Stabilizer and Alignment Jig
Bench Tube Stabilizer and Alignment Jig
20210131_063705.jpg (243.23 KiB) Viewed 280 times
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by JPG »

algale wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:42 am Very interesting point by Scott of My Growth Rings on why he never puts a fence on a left side extension table. He points out that the assembly has a ton of movement even locked. Check out the video. https://youtu.be/2iQ9GiiwHo4?t=460
I am amazed that he would have the tie rod clamp so loose(when clamped) that all that play was possible.

I think that was 'staged'.
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dusty
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

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After seeing this I had to check my own machines. Yes, there is a bit of movement in Scott's machine but was it locked If it was locked the lock needs to be adjusted. There should not be that much movement.

My other exception to his statements involve table to blade alignment. When the tubes are moved, as he did, everything changes position. The headstock (thus the blade) and the carriage (thus the table) move together (assuming they too are locked).

I think Scott did a disservice to the Shopsmith with this video.
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

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dusty wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:00 am I think Scott did a disservice to the Shopsmith with this video.
I agree his headrest latch seemed very loose, or unlocked, I also agree that there can be some repeatability error when engaging at the headrest. Scott correctly mentions that that those comments do not apply to Mark VII ('60s version) and Mark 7 (current). They also don't apply to any Mark 5/V with the Double-Tilt Base Upgrade 556210. Bottom line to me is that if you think it is a problem there is an upgrade solution.

I'd like to see Shopsmith offer a couple of DT options other than the whole thing. A single DT Base and Pivot Arm would allow elimination of the Headrest, though the machine would only tilt one way. A pair of those without the double rack main table tubes is also an option, one can reverse the main table tilt by reversing the carriage. Either of these would also work with a 500 or pre-500 and would be less expensive than the current offering.

Two cents worth, but for me there is value in the DT that has nothing to do with under table operations. Unlike Scott, I regularly use a second extension table and have the expectation that it will be well aligned every time whether I'm using a fence or just want the connector tubes aligned correctly. I have a complete DT upgrade on one machine and a pair of shop-made DT bases but no double rack main table on my shorty. I think both are significant improvements, at the cost that you must remove any SPT when going into vertical drill press mode.

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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by RFGuy »

DLB wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:52 am
dusty wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:00 am I think Scott did a disservice to the Shopsmith with this video.
I agree his headrest latch seemed very loose, or unlocked, I also agree that there can be some repeatability error when engaging at the headrest. Scott correctly mentions that that those comments do not apply to Mark VII ('60s version) and Mark 7 (current). They also don't apply to any Mark 5/V with the Double-Tilt Base Upgrade 556210. Bottom line to me is that if you think it is a problem there is an upgrade solution.

I'd like to see Shopsmith offer a couple of DT options other than the whole thing. A single DT Base and Pivot Arm would allow elimination of the Headrest, though the machine would only tilt one way. A pair of those without the double rack main table tubes is also an option, one can reverse the main table tilt by reversing the carriage. Either of these would also work with a 500 or pre-500 and would be less expensive than the current offering.

Two cents worth, but for me there is value in the DT that has nothing to do with under table operations. Unlike Scott, I regularly use a second extension table and have the expectation that it will be well aligned every time whether I'm using a fence or just want the connector tubes aligned correctly. I have a complete DT upgrade on one machine and a pair of shop-made DT bases but no double rack main table on my shorty. I think both are significant improvements, at the cost that you must remove any SPT when going into vertical drill press mode.

- David
It did seem excessive in Scott's video, but I just took it as he was trying to make a point about how bad it "could" be.

That is an interesting thought about them offering a subset of the DT upgrade. I would be interested, if it would stiffen up everything for alignment or woodturning. Unfortunately Shopsmith wants $529 for this upgrade which seems excessive to me for just a couple of Al castings, locking pins, etc. Did they switch from Al to Au for these castings???
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by DLB »

RFGuy wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:02 am Did they switch from Al to Au for these castings???
The kit is gold plated for sure. New Accessory Locking Handles? Mine were good for at least another 50 years. And the old base could be modified instead of replaced, I think the only difference is a longer hinge pin with "E" clips on the outside. Easier than replacing it.

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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by thedovetailjoint »

JPG wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:08 am
algale wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:42 am Very interesting point by Scott of My Growth Rings on why he never puts a fence on a left side extension table. He points out that the assembly has a ton of movement even locked. Check out the video. https://youtu.be/2iQ9GiiwHo4?t=460
I am amazed that he would have the tie rod clamp so loose(when clamped) that all that play was possible.

I think that was 'staged'.
I can assure you that nothing was staged in the video. I have all of my Mark V's adjusted the same way I had all of the Mark V's adjusted for years in the Dayton Academy. If you leave your SS jointer mounted, as I do, you will find that the level must be properly adjusted or you won't be able to raise the lever high enough to allow the machine to be listed into the drill press position. It could be made tighter, but then it won't lift with the jointer in place. This is a known characteristic of the Mark V, which is why we never mounted a fence on an extension table mounted on the left end. There are also similar reasons why you should not mount the fence on a floating table on the 510 but can on a floating table on the 520, but that's for another discussion. Scott (AKA: Scott from MyGrowthRings)
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by thedovetailjoint »

dusty wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:00 am My other exception to his statements involve table to blade alignment. When the tubes are moved, as he did, everything changes position. The headstock (thus the blade) and the carriage (thus the table) move together (assuming they too are locked).

I think Scott did a disservice to the Shopsmith with this video.
I believe you misunderstand my position, but that is likely my fault. If the way tubes are twisted and the table is alighted to the blade and then the adjustment to the headrest set screw is made, the table and blade will be slightly thrown out of alignment. It really depends upon how much adjustment is done. Scott
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by dusty »

thedovetailjoint wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:17 pm
dusty wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:00 am My other exception to his statements involve table to blade alignment. When the tubes are moved, as he did, everything changes position. The headstock (thus the blade) and the carriage (thus the table) move together (assuming they too are locked).

I think Scott did a disservice to the Shopsmith with this video.
I believe you misunderstand my position, but that is likely my fault. If the way tubes are twisted and the table is alighted to the blade and then the adjustment to the headrest set screw is made, the table and blade will be slightly thrown out of alignment. It really depends upon how much adjustment is done. Scott
Yes, if anything that contributes to the proper alignment is disturbed (like pulling and pushing on an unlocked tie bar) the validity of the alignment is in jeopardy. I believe you made that point well and I believe that experienced users know that.

The disservice in my mind was in demonstrating that movement when what was really being demonstrated was the function of the "big set screw". If the headrest had been properly locked that movement would not have been possible.

How many users or potential users perceive that that movement is typical. Experienced users know that when the headrest is properly adjusted and locked it is rock solid; not what was demonstrated.
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