DIY Electrical Question

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RFGuy
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Re: DIY Electrical Question

Post by RFGuy »

JPG wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:05 am I am curious re the fox/hound devices that would make hot-neut short a problem. How do they work?
They are battery powered so in theory it really shouldn't matter whether the neutral is grounded or not, but I would disconnect hot and neutral from the panel. This also will minimize any stray capacitance from the panel and other wiring from loading the Fox & Hound transmitter. Then hook positive of transmitter to the hot wire and negative to the neutral wire. The transmitter is just an audio tone generator and the receiver is essentially an AM receiver. Pretty simple but they work really well. Helps in finding, tracing, debugging wiring behind walls.
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DLB
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Re: DIY Electrical Question

Post by DLB »

It was relatively recently I noticed the CB was labeled, almost unheard of in this house when I moved in. So it had been turned on for years before that, and therefore not shorted deliberately. Also possible, even likely, that if I cut it with a trencher it'd be shorted now. So I'll check. But also not GFI.(?) Would have been late 90's, I know GFI requirements have changed over time but not the detail. I've never used this type tracer but this is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. I'm going to start with the visual below the CB panel, thinking I'll be able to confirm conduit presence, type, and size. If things check out I'll pick up the tracer and try it. I'll change it to GFI if I re-purpose it, my purpose is a water feature. And I'll remove the CB and dead-end the wire if I don't use it, I agree its an accident waiting to happen.

I've also found a lot of unacceptable wiring practices, especially in my rental house, but in this house they seem to have been responsible. In the rental I had outlets without ground continuity, ceiling fans with no connection box, etc. This fox and hound tracer would have saved me a lot of time and trouble on the ground discontinuities if I'd known about it and assuming it can be rigged to find ground discontinuity.

- David
RFGuy
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Re: DIY Electrical Question

Post by RFGuy »

Yeah, the NEC keeps changing so it is hard to keep up. Also some cities/counties are slow to adopt the latest NEC so unless you are an active Electrician it is difficult to know what is "acceptable" in your area at any given time. IF that cable was buried in conduit and was intended just for a gate opener with no electrical outlet for anyone to plug into it probably was legal to not have a GFI/arc fault CB at that time. It is more of a problem when someone goes to plug in something with an extension cord outdoors that GFI is mandated. Perfect example is say wiring something permanent in your garage. For example, garage outlets are typically same as outdoor outlets and need a GFI outlet/CB, but if you hard wire your dust collector then it doesn't need a GFI. Just my interpretation so check with local codes.

For checking outlets I highly recommend getting an outlet tester. You can find them at your local hardware store or order online. Typically only a few bucks for one of these and worth every penny. When I built my first house I walked it before closing and quickly found a dead outlet using one of these, but they also detect wiring issues on the neutral and ground. They even have newer models of these that will test GFI outlets too. Mine sits in my tool chest now collecting dust but any time you buy a new house, or want to check out a rental or are just unsure of an outlet they are great to have.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071FVB35Q?pd ... e5cc96ceca
outlet_tester.jpg
outlet_tester.jpg (59.65 KiB) Viewed 1724 times
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adrianpglover
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Re: DIY Electrical Question

Post by adrianpglover »

I've used the cheapo fox and hound tracer that Harbor Freight sells to trace the buried wiring for one of my sprinkler valves. When I moved into this house I found a few zones of the sprinkler system wouldn't work. Eventually found the valves as grass had grown over the boxes for them. I disconnected the wire from the controller and put the transmitter box on it, then took the toner outside and started tracing. The valve was a run just under 180' away. Found the break in the line where someone had staked a young tree with those temporary metal fence posts and cut the wire in half, around 100' into the run. With just the toner I couldn't hear the sound, but putting on some good headphones I was able to kill off the ambient noise and list for that quiet tone. This was also tracing with the toner antenna right on the ground and going slowly. The wire was about 12"-16" underground. Since then I've used it to quickly trace down breaks in my alarm sensor wiring, which seems to be a much better application for the cheaper HF variety.
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RFGuy
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Re: DIY Electrical Question

Post by RFGuy »

Here is a pic of mine. It was manufactured by Triplett Corporation and I bought it from Parts Express (loudspeaker/audio catalog). I have had it for many, many years and still store it in its original packaging, though I had to dust it off for the picture. I don't remember the cost but I am sure it was affordable because I had nearly non-existent disposable income at that time.

Yeah, even when using it in the house you have to get the receiver quite close to the wire to hear it but that is just part of the process that helps you locate where the target is or isn't (kind of like a game of Battleship ;) ). My guess is it should be able to read at least 18" down through earth, but that means keeping the receiver at ground level (awkward). Using headphones with it is a great idea if your receiver has a headphone jack.
IMG_5563.jpg
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Last edited by RFGuy on Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
📶RF Guy

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DLB
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Re: DIY Electrical Question

Post by DLB »

I do have an outlet tester similar to that. Bought it due to having several outlets with the Open Ground due to an incompetent 'electrician.' It doesn't really do anything that a volt meter won't do, but it is quick and easy and you don't have to wonder if you are making good contact. It's also useful if your 'assistant' (aka significant other) doesn't know how to use a voltmeter and you're trying to communicate from the attic. Mine is also good for determining if downstream outlets are or aren't GFCI. They are very inexpensive, and I use it fairly often.

From what I saw on Amazon, Triplett may be the premium brand for these. Slightly higher than Fluke and Klein, but of course probably not the same seller. There are a couple where the antenna is external and can hang down near the ground, that may be useful in my application since I know where one end is.

I hit a snag on my visual confirmation, wire does not go straight down as I had thought but penetrates at least one stud. This may change my approach to confirming the conduit type.

- David
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JPG
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Re: DIY Electrical Question

Post by JPG »

Can you tell if the 'romex' is "NM" or "UF"?
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RFGuy
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Re: DIY Electrical Question

Post by RFGuy »

A bit off topic for this thread, but Triplett actually has a rather interesting history for anyone interested (link below). I actually collect old electrical meters (voltmeter, ammeter, ohmmeter, power meter, capacitance meter, etc.). I particularly like the older Weston meters in wooden boxes. I know some of you really enjoy researching and discovering the history of Magna, Shopsmith, etc. and I enjoy learning about them as well. However, I have an even fonder appreciation for electrical equipment, particularly those made in the time where a skilled craftsman made the wooden cases for encasing radios, tv's, test equipment, etc. Just something about merging the two, i.e. well crafted woodwork and state of the art electronics for the time that intrigues me.

https://www.vanzwamcs.com/greenpages/me ... 20company.
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DLB
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Re: DIY Electrical Question

Post by DLB »

JPG wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:28 am Can you tell if the 'romex' is "NM" or "UF"?
Not with certainty, I have only a layman understanding of the differences. I only see about 1" of the sheath clearly. I definitely see paper, which I associate with NM but don't know that it is not present in UF. The sheath is white where UF I've bought is yellow, but I don't know that this is an identifier Vs a coincidence. I'm going to try to get better visual access between the next studs, we'll see.

- David
RFGuy
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Re: DIY Electrical Question

Post by RFGuy »

Direct burial cable is usually grey or black for the outer jacket. I thought you said there was a conduit involved? Typically individual stranded, not solid, would have been pulled through conduit for something like this (if it wasn't direct burial).
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