New guy, old machine

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AmishMachinist
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New guy, old machine

Post by AmishMachinist »

Hello,

First time posting here. I’ve creeped through the forums, looking at rebuilds and ideas, figured I would finally join. I’ve had a 10 ER for about 5 years now, randomly learned about them when I stumbled across one on Craigslist, $100 later and I had a basic machine with a few attachments. I will have to shrink my photo sizes to upload pics but I love this old machine. I’m 33 and I’m a maintenance mechanic and I really appreciate old machinery.

With that said I’m planning to convert mine to DC drive, probably cost about $500. If anyone else wants a run down of parts I use I will post some links. Whenever I get around to building it I will post up pics and a walkthrough.

But the brains will be a KB electronics 9429 drive board
https://motorsandcontrol.com/kb-electro ... -dc-drive/

The muscle a 1800rpm 3/4 hp Iron Horse 90 VDC
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/sh ... m-p75-1l18

Then all the odds and ends, enclosure, wiring, and building a conversion mount assuming the old ER motor won’t match a 56c mount. So slapping a brand new motor on a machine from the late 50s :D
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edma194
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Re: New guy, old machine

Post by edma194 »

Been looking at Shopsmith conversions using a DC treadmill motor just for fun. That isn't really going anywhere but I have looked at a lot of the KB controllers and it seems like a good choice. They mention needing an additional heatsink for a motor over 1/2HP and you might want to consider an additional cooling fan as well. Just a little box fan in your controller enclosure will do. The controller can also use a KBET-240D Electronic Tachometer (Part No. 9469) although it's not clear if that feedback work with the controller. You may just want a tachometer with display so you know how fast the motor or your spindle is actually turning.

The guys here tell me there's a ton of info on FaceBook about DC motors with Shopsmiths. I haven't sold my soul to FaceBook yet but I may have to if I ever actually start trying to use DC motors.
Ed from Rhode Island

Mark V 510 with PowerPro headstock, Mark V Greenie with 510 headstock, Mark V 500 in progress
Sawsmith 2000 Ultra, 10ER in progress, 10ER undetermined future
AmishMachinist
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Re: New guy, old machine

Post by AmishMachinist »

Ah I posted the wrong board, this is the one I’m using. It’s 3/4 hp, couple dollars more.

https://motorsandcontrol.com/kb-electro ... -dc-drive/

These boards drive almost every machine I work on. So I’m very familiar with their setups. They actually don’t make much heat, in a good vented enclosure one of them should be just fine without a fan. These things sit inside our machines at easily 90+ degree temps and run 24 hours 5 days a week with no fans. For a weekend warriors shopsmith I could not see one of these burning out too fast.

I might add a tachometer, but for that I would just use a basic proximity sensor and one of these inside the same enclosure as the board. I’m sure there is somewhere I could mount a proximity sensor to get a count or just add a reluctor gear under the headstock upper pulley.

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/sh ... tt-1c-a120

As for Facebook, who needs it. I ditched that well over a year ago. One of these days when I get some time off and start working on this I will post a write up. Just another one of those things I haven’t had time for lately.
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JPG
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Re: New guy, old machine

Post by JPG »

First welcome to this 'place'. Most here are Markxxx fans, but there are some here that also like old solid machinery.

Looking forward to future posts of your progress.
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╟JPG ╢
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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BuckeyeDennis
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Re: New guy, old machine

Post by BuckeyeDennis »

I’m curious, AmishMachinist. What do you see as the advantage of a DC motor and drive over a 3-phase Frame 56 AC motor, paired with a VFD? I haven’t priced that hardware in a while, but your budget would probably cover it up to 1 hp and maybe more, and you’d never have to worry about brush replacement or commutator wear.
AmishMachinist
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Re: New guy, old machine

Post by AmishMachinist »

BuckeyeDennis wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:25 pm I’m curious, AmishMachinist. What do you see as the advantage of a DC motor and drive over a 3-phase Frame 56 AC motor, paired with a VFD? I haven’t priced that hardware in a while, but your budget would probably cover it up to 1 hp and maybe more, and you’d never have to worry about brush replacement or commutator wear.
For me, it’s really because I currently work with DC motors and drives every day, they’re simple and easy to diagnose, good voltage good amperage no problems. VFDs are fantastic, but seem to get finicky with fluctuating draw on same circuits and fluctuating phases. I think it takes a very expensive high grade VFD to not see these issues. (Then again for a shopsmith these aren’t really an issue as opposed to a manufacturing machine where close tolerance and speed are necessary) DC drives are very simple and the newer boards have greater tuning capabilities than earlier drives. I haven’t seen any quality VFDs in the same price range as DC drives.

I also think it’s an advantage having serviceable brushes. Brushes have also come a long way, granted they are very dirty, but I’ve seen machines with hundreds of hours and I check the brushes and they still have 3/4 life left on them.

All in all for me it’s familiarity and personal preference, eventually AC/VFDs will overtake DC drives once they become common place in another 40 years and manufacturing is more competitive between brands.
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chapmanruss
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Re: New guy, old machine

Post by chapmanruss »

Although I haven't considered putting a DC Motor system on one of my Model 10's yet, it is a very practical upgrade for one being used a lot. I have owned 24 Model 10's and restored 21 of them so far. 3 yet to finish and one finished 10ER being sold this week. I look forward to your progress. As JPG said many on the forum are Mark series tools fans and I am too but I do enjoy the original Shopsmiths also. By the way your Model 10ER was likely made around 1951. The Model 10E and 10ER were made from 1947 through 1953. I don't know how much you have gone through on your Model 10ER yet but do consider the condition of the bearings in both the Drive Sleeve and Quill Assembly.
Russ

Mark V completely upgraded to Mark 7
Mark V 520
All SPT's & 2 Power Stations
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ metal ends & retractable casters.
Has Speed Changer, 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. 10E S/N 1076 & Mark 2 to be restored plus others.
edma194
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Re: New guy, old machine

Post by edma194 »

Have you considered a PWM controller or have any experience with them? Here's one from KB that costs a little more but will handle 3/4HP:
https://motorsandcontrol.com/kb-electro ... -dc-drive/

The advantage would be maintaining torque across the speed range, at least in theory.
Ed from Rhode Island

Mark V 510 with PowerPro headstock, Mark V Greenie with 510 headstock, Mark V 500 in progress
Sawsmith 2000 Ultra, 10ER in progress, 10ER undetermined future
AmishMachinist
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Re: New guy, old machine

Post by AmishMachinist »

chapmanruss wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:48 am Although I haven't considered putting a DC Motor system on one of my Model 10's yet, it is a very practical upgrade for one being used a lot. I have owned 24 Model 10's and restored 21 of them so far. 3 yet to finish and one finished 10ER being sold this week. I look forward to your progress. As JPG said many on the forum are Mark series tools fans and I am too but I do enjoy the original Shopsmiths also. By the way your Model 10ER was likely made around 1951. The Model 10E and 10ER were made from 1947 through 1953. I don't know how much you have gone through on your Model 10ER yet but do consider the condition of the bearings in both the Drive Sleeve and Quill Assembly.

Thank you, I will definitely be looking into the maintenance sections for what needs replacing. Most the bearings have been ok for just the basic cutting I do, but I definitely want to replace them.
AmishMachinist
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Re: New guy, old machine

Post by AmishMachinist »

edma194 wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:03 pm Have you considered a PWM controller or have any experience with them? Here's one from KB that costs a little more but will handle 3/4HP:
https://motorsandcontrol.com/kb-electro ... -dc-drive/

The advantage would be maintaining torque across the speed range, at least in theory.
I have never used one of those, but I might consider that option. I work with machines that pull and count wire, even on machines pulling heavy reels we haven’t found much need for PWMs. It’s likely a good idea for a saw though, seeing as it’s continually changing torque. On the machines I work on we usually dial in the IR and ACCEL on our basic boards to compensate for load at slower speeds. I don’t know how much more beneficial PWM would be over a correctly set IR on a saw. It might have some benefits, maybe if using for a drill on thicker stocks of steel.
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