3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

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roy_okc
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by roy_okc »

RFGuy wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:46 pm Agreed. That is why I am confused when he says that they "only made the 1/8" collet for the Milwaukee 5600 family as a market test because it is rarely used on CNC systems". IF they have an ER20 collet for 1/8" bits, then I had assumed I could buy this and add their 1/4" and 1/2" collets to it. In other words if they have an 1/8" ER20 collet AND an ER collet nut that fits Milwaukee then then 1/4" and 1/2" ER20 collets should fit too. However, it sounds like maybe they haven't made this a production version for the Milwaukee since it was a market experiment. If the spindle thread, ID and spindle depth match an ER20 collet in their catalog then it should work.
RF Guy,

Edit: Reading posts after this, looks like you do now understand the difference, but leaving for posterity sake for some future reader.

You're still confusing true ER20 collets and nuts versus the very specific collet on the Milwaukee (or PC 7518 or whatever). Do not think of the collets that PreciseBits sells for other routers as being true ER collets, because they are not. They are different sizes and shapes to support very specific router models. PB is machining, or having machined, collets specific to each type of router that they presently support. As I said above, the only router that I'm aware of that can use an actual ER collet is the new SpinRite, in this case ER20.

Below is a pic of three different collets that I have. The one on left is a true ER11 (which the ER11 line has various sizes up to 1/4"). The middle one is a 1/2" collet from PB for my Hitachi router. The one on the left is a 1/2" collet, also from PB, for my PC 690. An ER20 collet would look very much like the ER11 but larger. I'll take another pic next week when I receive the SpinRite with its true ER20 collet.

PXL_20210924_124353368.jpg
PXL_20210924_124353368.jpg (310.62 KiB) Viewed 330 times

Now, compare the pics above to the Milwaukee pic I pulled off the Elaire site:

milwaukee48661010.png
milwaukee48661010.png (14.94 KiB) Viewed 330 times

And finally, a pic of ER20s:

co-er20.jpg
co-er20.jpg (52.48 KiB) Viewed 330 times

See how the ER20s appear to have a different angle from the Elaires, not to mention straight sides vs the indented area. The ER20s also appear to have a different angle than my Hitachi and PC collets.

There are other types of collet standards, for example R8, Morse taper, 3C, 5C, all with different sizes and shapes.

What's a shame is that it has taken this long for any router manufacturer to embrace a standard size collet and nut.
Last edited by roy_okc on Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Roy

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roy_okc
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by roy_okc »

jsburger wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:55 pm So the inside diameter/shape of regular wood working router spindles (i.e. PC, Bosch, Milwaukee etc.) does not match the ER profile. Am I understanding that correctly? So PreciseBits is making an ER "style" collet that fits non ER router spindles. The Woodpeckers Spinrite spindle does match and works with ER collets. Another + for Woodpeckers.
John,

You've got it exactly.

Maybe I've confused the issue by saying ER "style" when that could be construed to mean all the specs to include an 8 degree angle and specific sizes etc. Rather, they sell collets that kind of look and function like ERs but are very different sizes and shapes to match the specific router.
Roy

Mark V/510, Mark V/500 with parts for 510 upgrade, bandsaw, jointer, belt sander, DC3300 w/1 micron bag
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RFGuy
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

Roy,

Thanks. I appreciate it. You are right, I was very confused until John pointed out to me that the PreciseBits collets are only ER-like, but not an actual ER collet. The bottomline is I am just trying to get a higher quality collet & collet nut, if I can find one. It doesn't have to be an ER collet or even an ER-like collet - I just want a higher precision collet. I had some concentricity issues with my Festool OF1400 handheld router before. This had more to do with how guide bushings mount in it than shaft runout, but still I am sensitive to runout and trying to minimize it. I expect to be running raised panel bits in this table, so runout is important especially on 3" diameter bits. Milwaukee sells 8 segment collets in addition to the 4 segment collet that comes with the router. There are no specs on them, so I would just have to purchase them and measure runout. The Elaire collets for Milwaukee look very similar to the ones Milwaukee sells, but unfortunately Elaire doesn't list any specs from them. I will try to call them later today because they don't answer e-mail. I believe the Elaire collets are even cheaper (in cost) than the Milwaukee 8 segment ones, so I am kind of doubting they are precision collets. Then we have PreciseBits. I traded several e-mails with them yesterday in between taking care of a personal emergency that popped up. Communication via e-mail with PreciseBits is like pulling teeth. The last communication from them told me that I could purchase the 1/8" collet that will fit my Milwaukee. It sounds like it is a one-off, i.e. when the run out of current inventory I don't think they are making any more. I am assuming the collet nut for the 1/8" collet could be reused on the 1/4" and 1/2" collets that PreciseBits sells and also claims work on my Milwaukee. Problem is I can't seem to get them to confirm this after multiple e-mails. I'll have to call them if I want to get to the bottom of any of this.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
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roy_okc
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by roy_okc »

RFGuy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:46 am I am assuming the collet nut for the 1/8" collet could be reused on the 1/4" and 1/2" collets that PreciseBits sells and also claims work on my Milwaukee. Problem is I can't seem to get them to confirm this after multiple e-mails. I'll have to call them if I want to get to the bottom of any of this.
RF Guy,

I'm not seeing anything but 1/8" collets for the Milwaukee, but as everyone has noted their site can be frustrating to navigate. I would expect that yes, you could use the same PB Milwaukee nut for any size PB Milwaukee collets. The collets simply snap in/out of the nut. But the response you got from them leads me to believe they only have 1/8" collets for the Milwaukee.
Roy

Mark V/510, Mark V/500 with parts for 510 upgrade, bandsaw, jointer, belt sander, DC3300 w/1 micron bag
Sawstop 3HP 36" PCS w/router table insert
Home designed and built CNC router, another CNC router :D desktop size
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Way too much other stuff and not enough space :rolleyes:
RFGuy
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

roy_okc wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:54 am RF Guy,

I'm not seeing anything but 1/8" collets for the Milwaukee, but as everyone has noted their site can be frustrating to navigate. I would expect that yes, you could use the same PB Milwaukee nut for any size PB Milwaukee collets. The collets simply snap in/out of the nut. But the response you got from them leads me to believe they only have 1/8" collets for the Milwaukee.
Roy,

Thanks. Yes, you are right. I just took yet another look at their website. I think what was confusing me is not having a clear understanding of what is included in the "kit" that they sell for Milwaukee. Not knowing the part numbers and/or pics of what is included makes it difficult. Looking again now, what I can see is that the Milwaukee kit is 1/8" collet only and the picture shows an ER-like collet. They also sell actual ER20 collets which I mistakenly thought I could mix & match with the collet nut from the kit. Clearly this isn't the case, but I was too much of an ER collet newbie at the time to figure this out. They only manufactured one kit for the Milwaukee as part of a marketing trial run, but didn't get enough sales on it so only the 1/8" ER-like collet is available for the Milwaukee. Thanks again for all of your help. In hindsight, that Chinese Spinrite router motor from Woodpeckers definitely looks compelling now since it supports ER20 collets and is almost half the price of the Milwaukee.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
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RFGuy
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

For anyone interested in the new Woodpeckers Spinrite router, they posted a video on it recently that gives a few more details. He messes up on trying to explain the noise in the video (106dBA -> 93dBA is NOT 10% quieter, but significantly more quiet - still 93dB is a noisy beast; also they probably should have used "C" weighting for measuring this). I wish they would post specs on the expected runout. On the video comments, Woodpeckers claims it is just under 0.001" runout when measured at the collet taper.

P.S. My Milwaukee measures around 94dBA for comparison. It starts out much noisier (110dBA), but after a few seconds of warming up it averages only 94dBA.

P.P.S. I found a review on another forum where someone received this SpinRite router motor already. They said it fits perfectly in the Mast-R-Lift II. After opening it up, they found one of the brush spring covers was out of place and flapping side to side. Also the spade connections were all loose and had to be tightened. Manual had typos and missing pictures. Overall, they thought it had poor quality control, but the ER20 collets is obviously a plus. I contemplated sending my Milwaukee back, but after reading this review of the Spinrite I will probably keep it.

Last edited by RFGuy on Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
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RFGuy
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

Okay, one more question on the sizing of "true" ER collets...So, my Milwaukee has a cavernous opening down the length of the drive shaft so I don't believe depth is a concern. The ID of that shaft is around 17mm so this means a standard ER20 collet won't fit because it is spec'd to a 20mm opening, but an ER16 collet should fit, correct? There is a bushing inside the shaft and if it could be removed, I believe an ER20 could fit. Lastly, the collet nut is important and I believe that my Milwaukee router has a collet nut thread of M25x1.5mm. In searching online, I can find some aftermarket collet nuts that should fit my router. Just wondering what my capabilities are with my setup. I believe I could add a true ER16 collet to my Milwaukee router, if I wanted to, but it would only help for 1/4", 6mm, 8mm, etc. bits.

I did some crude runout checks on my Milwaukee and it seems to be in the ballpark of what FWW posted before. Hesitant to post any numbers until I get more stable readings after mounting it in the table.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
roy_okc
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by roy_okc »

RFGuy wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:10 pm Okay, one more question on the sizing of "true" ER collets...So, my Milwaukee has a cavernous opening down the length of the drive shaft so I don't believe depth is a concern. The ID of that shaft is around 17mm so this means a standard ER20 collet won't fit because it is spec'd to a 20mm opening, but an ER16 collet should fit, correct? There is a bushing inside the shaft and if it could be removed, I believe an ER20 could fit. Lastly, the collet nut is important and I believe that my Milwaukee router has a collet nut thread of M25x1.5mm. In searching online, I can find some aftermarket collet nuts that should fit my router. Just wondering what my capabilities are with my setup. I believe I could add a true ER16 collet to my Milwaukee router, if I wanted to, but it would only help for 1/4", 6mm, 8mm, etc. bits.

I did some crude runout checks on my Milwaukee and it seems to be in the ballpark of what FWW posted before. Hesitant to post any numbers until I get more stable readings after mounting it in the table.
RF Guy,

Besides diameter, there is also the taper angle (8 degrees for true ER) plus the location and sizes of the groove that holds the collet in the nut. My completely uneducated guess is that the Milwaukee taper is going to be something different. I also wouldn't be surprised if the threads or different between the proper ER nuts and the Milwaukee. I highly doubt that you could use the Milwaukee nut with the ER collets; the ER nuts are metric, wouldn't be surprised if the Milwaukee has imperial threads.

If you've eliminated the Elaire collets as a possibility and/or really want to try ER16/20, I'd suggest buying the cheapest collets and nuts you can find on Amazon or where ever and very gently try them on the Milwaukee.
Roy

Mark V/510, Mark V/500 with parts for 510 upgrade, bandsaw, jointer, belt sander, DC3300 w/1 micron bag
Sawstop 3HP 36" PCS w/router table insert
Home designed and built CNC router, another CNC router :D desktop size
Laser engraver
Way too much other stuff and not enough space :rolleyes:
RFGuy
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

roy_okc wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:40 pm I highly doubt that you could use the Milwaukee nut with the ER collets; the ER nuts are metric, wouldn't be surprised if the Milwaukee has imperial threads.
Roy,

Thanks. Yeah, I wouldn't try to force anything, but I did measure an M25x1.5mm thread for the Milwaukee drive shaft. I also checked with my Imperial gauge and couldn't even find a thread that was close in Imperial, so I am 99% sure it is metric. Unfortunately there are no specs online to confirm this, but this is what I measure it to be. I am not too surprised by this. I know Milwaukee build a few tools in the States, but most of their power tools are manufactured either in China or Europe. Since router collets/nuts aren't standard and are proprietary, I figured there was a good chance it was metric given where it is manufactured. I don't know that I really need an ER collet, but it is more out of curiosity if it would fit at this point. It really would be great if router manufacturers would standardize in this area.
roy_okc wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:40 pm Besides diameter, there is also the taper angle (8 degrees for true ER) plus the location and sizes of the groove that holds the collet in the nut.
Yeah, I forgot about the taper angle. ER collets are meant to mount in a taper, but I guess I was thinking of it more like those PreciseBits collets that are ER like. They claim these fit multiple different router brands, but I guess they must be doing something special with that collet nut because the drive shaft on those routers are NOT tapered inside as far as I know. I guess that must also be a difference with that new Spinrite router then, i.e. it has a tapered drive shaft.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
RFGuy
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

Just an update...I finally got up with someone at Elaire corporation and their response to me is below. I am going to try them out. Their runout looks comparable to the ER20 collets used in the Woodpeckers Spinrite router. Kind of surprised they don't furnish a collet nut, so you have to buy or re-purpose the Milwaukee one for it.

They do not include the collet nut and the TIR is +/-0.001.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
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