New Shopsmith DC-6000 Dust Collector

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DLB
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Re: New Shopsmith DC-6000 Dust Collector

Post by DLB »

dusty wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:07 pm
What cooling deficiency??? Has there been any detailed scientific testing showing that there is a deficiency? Was there any test data available from the DC-3300 that indicates it ran cooler than does the DC-6000.? How many DC motor burnouts have you heard about? I know of one failure and no indication it was heat related.

Remember - the two motor housings are almost duplicates of one another. YES, I know that the motors are not but I don't know that one runs hotter than the other.

IMO, that is the whole problem. The sales literature describes it: "New Motor Housing to accommodate the new, larger motor" I don't think that's what I received.

I believe that we might be jumping to conclusions that can not be substantiated.
In my previous life "deficiency" was a really big word, we called it 'the D word.' Only one person in our company, employment ranging from 8K - 35K+ over the years, had the authority to use the word about our products or our suppliers' products. Because it meant we were paying for the solution. In engineering it means a product does not meet a documented minimum requirement, with substantial evidence proving that to be the case. And it can still be later disproven with substantial evidence to the contrary. During investigations we carefully documented costs to ensure that if it was indeed a deficiency we could segregate costs. Because of that background, I would not call this a deficiency. I would also not say that it is not deficient.

As far as I know SS does not say the DC-6000 does or does not support continuous operation, so I probably would not call it deficient for not providing that capability. The DC-3300 motor states, on its label, that it is designed and rated for continuous operation. The DC-6000 motor does not, I think that is more a lack of info on the label than a quality of the motor. But today I have an informed opinion that the DC-3300 would provide continuous operation and the DC-6000 would not. My opinion is based almost entirely on the presence in one, and the absence in the other, of forced air cooling. Further substantiated by what little thermal evaluation I have done.

But this is a tool review, we ought to be able to state our opinions and observations as we develop them. Reviews like this are full of people stating their opinions as facts. To me, it is understood when someone states a judgment about a product it is an opinion whether they said so or not (IMO, IMHO, I think, I believe, etc.). If they have data that supports their opinion, so much the better. We have a limited amount of data on which to form an opinion. I imagine if there was scientific test data gathered on this product it was SS that did it, and I don't imagine they will share the data with us for our review. They are welcome to disagree, this is their forum too. Better yet, they could publish a user's manual stating any limitations in how the tool can be used. I received an installation guide, not a user's manual, for mine.

- David
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dusty
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Re: New Shopsmith DC-6000 Dust Collector

Post by dusty »

DLB wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:05 pm
dusty wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:07 pm
What cooling deficiency??? Has there been any detailed scientific testing showing that there is a deficiency? Was there any test data available from the DC-3300 that indicates it ran cooler than does the DC-6000.? How many DC motor burnouts have you heard about? I know of one failure and no indication it was heat related.

Remember - the two motor housings are almost duplicates of one another. YES, I know that the motors are not but I don't know that one runs hotter than the other.

IMO, that is the whole problem. The sales literature describes it: "New Motor Housing to accommodate the new, larger motor" I don't think that's what I received.

I believe that we might be jumping to conclusions that can not be substantiated.
In my previous life "deficiency" was a really big word, we called it 'the D word.' Only one person in our company, employment ranging from 8K - 35K+ over the years, had the authority to use the word about our products or our suppliers' products. Because it meant we were paying for the solution. In engineering it means a product does not meet a documented minimum requirement, with substantial evidence proving that to be the case. And it can still be later disproven with substantial evidence to the contrary. During investigations we carefully documented costs to ensure that if it was indeed a deficiency we could segregate costs. Because of that background, I would not call this a deficiency. I would also not say that it is not deficient.

As far as I know SS does not say the DC-6000 does or does not support continuous operation, so I probably would not call it deficient for not providing that capability. The DC-3300 motor states, on its label, that it is designed and rated for continuous operation. The DC-6000 motor does not, I think that is more a lack of info on the label than a quality of the motor. But today I have an informed opinion that the DC-3300 would provide continuous operation and the DC-6000 would not. My opinion is based almost entirely on the presence in one, and the absence in the other, of forced air cooling. Further substantiated by what little thermal evaluation I have done.

But this is a tool review, we ought to be able to state our opinions and observations as we develop them. Reviews like this are full of people stating their opinions as facts. To me, it is understood when someone states a judgment about a product it is an opinion whether they said so or not (IMO, IMHO, I think, I believe, etc.). If they have data that supports their opinion, so much the better. We have a limited amount of data on which to form an opinion. I imagine if there was scientific test data gathered on this product it was SS that did it, and I don't imagine they will share the data with us for our review. They are welcome to disagree, this is their forum too. Better yet, they could publish a user's manual stating any limitations in how the tool can be used. I received an installation guide, not a user's manual, for mine.

- David
This thread has certainly been littered with opinion and I think that is good.

You said: "My opinion is based almost entirely on the presence in one, and the absence in the other, of forced air cooling". Where I must ask is there "forced air" cooling? There might be an internal fan buried down there on the back of the motor in the DC-3300 if that is what you refer to as "forced air" but there is a fan on the DC-6000 motor. too All be it, right inside the grill. BTW Don't stick your finger through that hole. Just take my word. The fan takes quite a while to run down.
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dusty
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Re: New Shopsmith DC-6000 Dust Collector

Post by dusty »

dusty wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:28 pm
DLB wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:05 pm
dusty wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:07 pm
What cooling deficiency??? Has there been any detailed scientific testing showing that there is a deficiency? Was there any test data available from the DC-3300 that indicates it ran cooler than does the DC-6000.? How many DC motor burnouts have you heard about? I know of one failure and no indication it was heat related.

Remember - the two motor housings are almost duplicates of one another. YES, I know that the motors are not but I don't know that one runs hotter than the other.

IMO, that is the whole problem. The sales literature describes it: "New Motor Housing to accommodate the new, larger motor" I don't think that's what I received.

I believe that we might be jumping to conclusions that can not be substantiated.
In my previous life "deficiency" was a really big word, we called it 'the D word.' Only one person in our company, employment ranging from 8K - 35K+ over the years, had the authority to use the word about our products or our suppliers' products. Because it meant we were paying for the solution. In engineering it means a product does not meet a documented minimum requirement, with substantial evidence proving that to be the case. And it can still be later disproven with substantial evidence to the contrary. During investigations we carefully documented costs to ensure that if it was indeed a deficiency we could segregate costs. Because of that background, I would not call this a deficiency. I would also not say that it is not deficient.

As far as I know SS does not say the DC-6000 does or does not support continuous operation, so I probably would not call it deficient for not providing that capability. The DC-3300 motor states, on its label, that it is designed and rated for continuous operation. The DC-6000 motor does not, I think that is more a lack of info on the label than a quality of the motor. But today I have an informed opinion that the DC-3300 would provide continuous operation and the DC-6000 would not. My opinion is based almost entirely on the presence in one, and the absence in the other, of forced air cooling. Further substantiated by what little thermal evaluation I have done.

But this is a tool review, we ought to be able to state our opinions and observations as we develop them. Reviews like this are full of people stating their opinions as facts. To me, it is understood when someone states a judgment about a product it is an opinion whether they said so or not (IMO, IMHO, I think, I believe, etc.). If they have data that supports their opinion, so much the better. We have a limited amount of data on which to form an opinion. I imagine if there was scientific test data gathered on this product it was SS that did it, and I don't imagine they will share the data with us for our review. They are welcome to disagree, this is their forum too. Better yet, they could publish a user's manual stating any limitations in how the tool can be used. I received an installation guide, not a user's manual, for mine.

- David
This thread has certainly been littered with opinion and I think that is good.

You said: "My opinion is based almost entirely on the presence in one, and the absence in the other, of forced air cooling". Where I must ask is there "forced air" cooling? There might be an internal fan buried down there on the back of the motor in the DC-3300 if that is what you refer to as "forced air" but there is a fan on the DC-6000 motor. too All be it, right inside the grill. BTW Don't stick your finger through that hole. Just take my word. The fan takes quite a while to run down.

During the time that I worked for a defense contractor as an Environmental Engineer I worked as a "destructive test engineer". If I had ever said in one of my reports that it was my opinion I would certainly have been given a lecture and if it had been certain contracts they would have found me different work. Opinions were a no-no. Facts, only the facts and be ready to prove them.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
DLB
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Re: New Shopsmith DC-6000 Dust Collector

Post by DLB »

To me, my background, forced air suggests a defined or controlled path for the air such that a predictable amount of heat will be picked up by the air as it travels from a defined inlet to a defined outlet. Where a fan running in an open space is more of an aid to conductive cooling between something and the air. There are definitely gray areas between those. But the key difference between the two DCs is that defined airflow path.

The DC-3300 cooling fan is inside the motor case, I don't recall at which end. All of the air that it pulls in through the grate must travel the full length of the motor, internal to the motor, to the exhaust ports. The exhaust ports are open to the inside of the motor housing, so exhaust air also travels the full length of the motor on the outside back to the grate. It is not as elegant as a conventional SS headstock, but empirical data seems to suggest it works. It has a defined inlet, defined cooling path, and defined outlet. As far as I know, the DC-3300 will run continuously in a reasonable environment. I've run it for hours. I've never felt the need to measure the temperature.

The DC-6000 motor is an enclosed motor, clearly can't be cooled the same way as there is no internal path. IMO it is designed to have a cover over the fan that directs the airflow over the motor case. Like the one on the PowerPro and every other similar example I can think of. It has a defined inlet but the lack of the cover means there is no defined path for the air to effectively cool the motor. I don't have a smoke pen and have not verified the airflow paths, but it seems to me that most of the air is going directly back out the exhaust without passing over much of the the motor case. I do have a couple of thermocouples and have satisfied myself that the motor is not sufficiently cooled by any means to support continuous operation. Based on what I've learned so far, I would not run mine for 40 minutes continuously again, because I think the temps reached may be shortening its life. If other data is developed that contradicts that I'd love to see it, I don't like this answer and hope it is proven wrong. ( Note - I'm not suggesting here that a typical TEFC fan cover constitutes forced air cooling, it is basically a ducted fan. The PowerPro has one, but no defined inlet and exhaust and headstock cooling can get sketchy when it starts recirculating hot air. But for the DC-6000 a similar cover would give direction to the airflow that, combined with conductive cooling not present in the 3300 might cool the motor such that it reaches thermal stability at a reasonable temperature while performing its intended function.) Forced air cooling of sufficient volume would unquestionably allow the motor to operate at whatever duty cycle it is designed for, I presume continuous.

- David
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dusty
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Re: New Shopsmith DC-6000 Dust Collector

Post by dusty »

Yes, the DC-3300 motor is equipped with an internal fan blade on the shaft end of the motor. Being on the shaft end it operates buried deep in the Fan Housing. Whatever air it moves passes across the motor as it exits the Fan Housing. That air movement can be felt on the open end of the Motor Housing.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, I installed the motor back in the DC-3300 Motor Housing and turned it on. The air flow that I can feel is detectably less than what I feel at the grill of the DC-6000. Very, very subjective and inconclusive but it satisfied my curiosity. The DC-6000 is moving a significant amount of air in the Motor Housing.
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Re: New Shopsmith DC-6000 Dust Collector

Post by JPG »

Sucking air IN at the center and expelling it at the periphery does not imply ANY air flow around the motor inside.
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Re: New Shopsmith DC-6000 Dust Collector

Post by dusty »

I asked Shopsmith today, via an email to customer service, about the motor rating. According to the response from engineering, the DC-6000 motor is rated for continuous duty.

I also suggested that that information is important and should be included in the marketing information.
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dusty
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Re: New Shopsmith DC-6000 Dust Collector

Post by dusty »

JPG wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:41 pm Sucking air IN at the center and expelling it at the periphery does not imply ANY air flow around the motor inside.
Surely you jest.

In that small compartment, occupied mostly by the motor, where else would it go.

Furthermore, what else would cause the exhausted air to be warmer than ambient but heat off the motor.
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Re: New Shopsmith DC-6000 Dust Collector

Post by JPG »

Partially jest. Apparently there is sufficient turbulence for some air in/out of the motor housing.

The motor may be rated 'continuous' but I question that in that motor housing. Free air maybe, but not enclosed.
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Re: New Shopsmith DC-6000 Dust Collector

Post by DLB »

JPG wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:19 pm Partially jest. Apparently there is sufficient turbulence for some air in/out of the motor housing.

The motor may be rated 'continuous' but I question that in that motor housing. Free air maybe, but not enclosed.
I noticed there are three threaded holes spaced evenly on the rear end-cap of the motor. Perhaps intended for a typical TEFC fan cover installation.(?) IIRC the PowrPro fan cover mounts similarly. Seems to me that could potentially help by moving that turbulence closer to the heat source and directing all of the fan exhaust further into the cave before it starts seeking a low pressure outlet. I really wonder about that part, but we've seen multiple pictures of the fan, three out of three, with no cover. IIWM I'd try it with a cover and an extra-long cover, rather than no cover. But maybe those don't fit in the 'new' motor housing.

SS indicated to me that they want to RMA my upgrade. I kind of expected that for the motor housing. I'll be out of the DC-6000 business for a while. I'm still planning on an Engineering call, but it's not clear to me if that's still on.

- David
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