RAS safety I might be wrong ??

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Hobbyman2
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RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by Hobbyman2 »

Was taught to use a RAS many years ago ,I was always told to pull the saw back and make the cut moving forward into the wood , theory was that you would never cut on a table saw or power saw from the back side of the blade, never had a issue with kick back or the blade grabbing and walking across the wood , I understand that the RAS blade adds a downward force on the wood when moving it in the reverse action towards operator, however the danger of the saw grabbing and walking backwards is very real , especially if you were not making a through cut . reason I am posting this is there are a lot of videos of people using the saw IMO the wrong way, look at the sliding miter box , you should all ways push the blade into the wood , the blade should all ways cut into the wood regardless if it is straight down or not , pull it backwards and push it into the work . cutting on the table saw, the wood is pushed into the cutting blade , nearly every saw I can think of with exception is the scroll saw with spiral blades cuts this way , Am I wrong ? next safety question is , for the life of me I can not understand why there was never a T- Track system installed on the RAS table where clamps to lock down the wood if needed ? if used correctly the RAS is as safe as a table saw , with a few added features it is safer because it can eliminate kick back all together ?
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john_001
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by john_001 »

Good call. I always draw the miter saw back and push it into the wood, like you said. Scott Phillips (American Wood Shop) and Tommy McDonald (the old "Rough Cut" show) do it that way, too. Another hint for the miter saw that I see people not always doing: let the blade come up to speed before starting the cut, and let it come to a full stop before lifting it. If I need a finished cut it makes quite a difference on my saw.
rogersk
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by rogersk »

The proper way to crosscut on a radial arm saw is to pull the saw through the board using a blade with a zero, or negative hook. The saw must be set up correctly, that is, the blade must be square to the fence and table, with no healing. The blade normally puts downward force on the wood, and also forces it toward the fence.

When ripping on the RAS, the proper way is to push the wood into the BACK of the blade. This is because there is no fence behind the cut to keep the board from being ripped out of the operators hands. A properly adjusted blade guard will hold the work down to the table, and the anti kickback pawl will keep the work from coming back at the operator, should the board try to close up on the exit side of the blade.

Sliding miter saws are operated differently. I can't comment on them because I have never used one. I have alot of expereince on a regular miter saw, just not the sliding type.

Also, I have read more than a few books on operating a RAS, and I have never read one that recommends pushing the blade through the wood while crosscutting.

Just my opinion.
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JPG
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by JPG »

We need to keep different saws distinct when discussing 'proper' procedure.

A "Radial Arm Saw", a "Chop Saw" and a "Sliding Miter Saw" are all different from each other.

The cutting action differs.

A Radial Arm Saw cuts with a climb action and is fed linially through the workpiece. The climb both forces the workpiece tight to the 'table' and tight against the rear stop 'fence'.

A Chop Saw is similar but the feed motion is a vertical radial path. Again climb provides force of the workpiece towards the rear fence stop but the downward force is variable as it feeds.

The reason for using a sliding miter saw with a reverse feed motion that 'should' be linear and not like a chop saw escapes me. The cutting action is a plow cut with lineal feed which would tend to lift the workpiece off the bed of the saw. Someone elucidate me on this.
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DLB
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by DLB »

JPG wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:56 pm We need to keep different saws distinct when discussing 'proper' procedure.
... The reason for using a sliding miter saw with a reverse feed motion that 'should' be linear and not like a chop saw escapes me. The cutting action is a plow cut with lineal feed which would tend to lift the workpiece off the bed of the saw. Someone elucidate me on this...
I interpreted some of the miter saw references above as meaning an old-school miter saw, such as a back saw and miter box or similar. Pushing action because of tooth design. Perhaps more clarity on the references is needed. Never having used the modern circular type, I would have expected it to be similar to a RAS or a blend with the chop type.

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Hobbyman2
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by Hobbyman2 »

rogersk wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:57 pm The proper way to crosscut on a radial arm saw is to pull the saw through the board using a blade with a zero, or negative hook. The saw must be set up correctly, that is, the blade must be square to the fence and table, with no healing. The blade normally puts downward force on the wood, and also forces it toward the fence.

When ripping on the RAS, the proper way is to push the wood into the BACK of the blade. This is because there is no fence behind the cut to keep the board from being ripped out of the operators hands. A properly adjusted blade guard will hold the work down to the table, and the anti kickback pawl will keep the work from coming back at the operator, should the board try to close up on the exit side of the blade.

Sliding miter saws are operated differently. I can't comment on them because I have never used one. I have alot of expereince on a regular miter saw, just not the sliding type.

Also, I have read more than a few books on operating a RAS, and I have never read one that recommends pushing the blade through the wood while crosscutting.

Just my opinion.
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Thanks and I hope we can add a little more safety to your hobby .
first I would not agree at all with you statement , in fact that is very dangerous , not picking on you here because many folks do not understand , here is something to think about , the old RAS had adjustable kick back fingers that hung down off a rod , for them to work properly the saw had to be pushed through the wood , {not pulled} . I have heard some say the downward force from the blade keeps it against the fence when pulling the saw ???? there is some truth to that however like it was just mentioned there is also a climbing factor, push the saw through the cut and all that climbing danger goes away . you don't cut from the back side of a table saw ???? and you don't pull a power saw through a cut ???? here is something else to consider , when you pull the saw the dust goes down into the saw table because the blade rotation is downward , . when you push the saw through the cut the dust is lifted up and away into the collection system.
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JPG
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by JPG »

My recollection is that the 'anti kick back pawls' were there for ripping. And ripping needed to be a plow action.

Truth be told ripping with a RAS is risky business!
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Hobbyman2
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by Hobbyman2 »

JPG wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:12 pm My recollection is that the 'anti kick back pawls' were there for ripping. And ripping needed to be a plow action.

Truth be told ripping with a RAS is risky business!
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Good point . Dad's rule NO.1 use the kick back fingers no mater what ,they are there to stop the saw as much as the wood . I have ripped wood on the RAS with out issues but all ways pushed the wood into the blade, not from the rear ,the only issue I had was if you push too hard on the wood when ripping it could move the saw and that left a un square cut . when cross cutting or ripping , the kick back fingers will stop the saw from moving backwards if it were to bind up and try to kick back , the wood "usually" didn't kick back into the operator because push or pull even the cut end of the wood is all ways being pushed into the fence away from them. that is safer than a ordinary table saw , I seen a guy using one on a video and for the life of me I had to turn off the video , this fella said he was a pro !!! as to the chop saw , my experience using what we called a chop saw was used for cutting steel or metal .sorry for any confusion in the original post .
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reible
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by reible »

When I worked as a carpenters helper I got to do the ripping on the ras. Mostly because it covered you in saw dust. I don't recall any kickback issues and it was the only saw on site so it was used for most things that were not done with a circular "skill" saw. Most of these saws came with a cable and a magic box that controlled how fast it could move much like a seat belt, move fast and it locked.

My brother had a sears version and it didn't have the safety cable and was recalled, I think you sent the motor in and they gave you $$, maybe someone here did that and remembers the details???

My miter saw can work like the traditional "chop" saw by locking the head on the slides and I find this very useful. Of course the slides gives you a much wide cut with a smaller blade. And yes you bring the blade out then lower and cut while pushing in. They are designed to work with negative hook angle blades, much safer as they don't grab near as much.

If you have any doubts about how to cut with the saw you have it should be in the manual so read, understand and of course follow the instructions.

Ed
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JPG
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by JPG »

Perhaps my lack of understanding is because I do not have a sliding miter saw nor have I ever read a manual for one. I am only trying to understand from the physics involved.
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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