RAS safety I might be wrong ??

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Hobbyman2
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by Hobbyman2 »

rogersk wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:16 pm
edma194 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:45 pm


I don't understand the part about "climb" up out of the cut. How does the saw move upwards? If this were a sliding miter saw I could understand that happening because the blade is mounted on a lever arm, but on a RAS it slides on the rail at a fixed height over the table.
I've never had this happen on my DeWalt with it's heavy cast iron arm, but I did have it happen to me on a Craftsman I purchased in the 80's. The arm was basically sheet metal and the force of the blade coming forward too fast flexed the arm upward enough for the blade to just climb out of the cut. The motor stalled and the circuit breaker blew.

I purchased the saw new from Sears and it came with a one year in-home service policy. This is when Sears had there own service vans and would come right to your house. They initially setup the saw for me and it crosscut great. I began having problems when I started to rip with it--which was the reason I bought it. It ripped fine, but after changing back and forth from ripping to crosscutting a few times the saw would loose it settings and start to crosscut out of square and grab and run at me. I called Sears and they came out and set it back up for me. The service man asked me if I got the saw bound in a cut and I said no, it had been crosscutting and ripping fine up to then. When he heard I was ripping with the saw he said that was the problem. he said the saws had a problem holding their setup switching back and forth. He spent some time with me going over how to setup the saw so I could do it after the service contract ran out. I was quite disappointed, and sold the saw after just 2 years.

I bought the used 12" DeWalt 7790 from a cabinet shop going out of business because I had heard it was more heavy built and would hold its settings. And it has been perfect. I have never had any problems. I ripped all my sheet stock on it for about 18 years. I started using a Jet table saw in 2008 for ripping because I found it to be a little faster. Now that I'm retired, I am going to sell the Jet ProShop and go back to the DeWalt for ripping because the table saw takes up too much room. It has to sit in the middle of the room to use, whereas the RAS is up against the wall, ripping or crosscutting.
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a good track saw would do the same thing .
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JPG
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by JPG »

Climb/plow refers to the relative motion of the cutter vs the feed direction of the workpiece.

Consider those motions to be horizontal. When the horizontal motion of the cutter is the same as the workpiece feed, the cutter is climbing. When the horizontal motion of the cutter is opposite the workpiece feed direction the cutter is plowing.

Thus it is the with/against relative motion of the two parts that determines the type of cut. This applies regardless of whether the cutter or the workpiece is providing the feed direction and up/down/in/out/above/below does not alter that.
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JPG
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by JPG »

The Purdue vid is correct IMO.
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
Hobbyman2
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by Hobbyman2 »

This is the part in the article I do agree with , but they then go on to describe cutting in this manner as proper ? no where does it say pushing the saw through the cut as dangerous ?

from the article
Pulling on saw may cause bodily injury.
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rogersk
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by rogersk »

Hobbyman2 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:22 pm
a good track saw would do the same thing .
Yes, I've been pondering a track saw for some time. From videos I've watched, they appear to make breaking down sheet goods very easy, and when not being used would take up hardly any space.
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Ed in Tampa
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by Ed in Tampa »

I have never understood the argument over the safety of a radial arm saw. Tablesaws on the other hand terrify me. On a radial arm saw you always can see the blade, see how it is engaging with the wood and you can use your whole body to control the cut. I agree if you use a limp fish hold on the carriage and yank it into the wood, it probably will hurt you. To me a radial arm saw is almost as useful as the Shopsmith. It can be a saw, miter saw, drum sander, disk sander, drill press, lathe, planner, shaper, jointer, moulder and etc. I have owned one since 1969 and it has served me well. I would never have bought a tablesaw had I not listened to “Tablesaw Elitists” most know not what they talk about.

I once had the radial arm attack me climb up on board and race toward me. But proper position on my part prevented even a close call. However it did scare me. That is when I learned about blade dynamics, the problem was I was using a totally wrong blade. I will admit I rarely ripped on my RAS but even then following directions made the procedure always safe and comfortable to me.

Me personally give me a “good” radial arm over the common tablesaw. I am reaching the age where I think of down sizing my shop. But in every scenario I can think of my radial arm saw will be the last to leave.
Hobbyman2
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by Hobbyman2 »

dad had more attachments to his than you can imagine, from shaper and router blades , dado blades like you said you name it . he made some rather impressive molding when he built the house all with the RAS .

I was looking to buy a new one but seeing the price,,, well the one I have will suit me for many more years .https://www.woodcraft.com/products/radi ... e-208-230v
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BuckeyeDennis
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by BuckeyeDennis »

In my opinion, the book How to Master the Radial Arm Saw, by Walley Kunkel (aka. Mr. Sawdust), is the best book out there on radial arm saw techniques. Wally was a top sales and marketing guy at DeWalt during their RAS heyday, and then taught woodworking for many years after leaving the company. The book addresses pretty much all of the common RAS myths, misinformation, and debates. It's written in a very entertaining style, and teaches woodworking techniques that also can be used with other types of equipment.

Of particular interest to this crowd, Wally had also lusted for a early Shopsmith, a 10ER I presume, and bought one new to build furniture for his family before diving into the RAS world. He talks about this on the first page of Chapter 1.

Wally is clear in his book that radial arm saws should be pulled through crosscuts, even though that is indeed a "climb cut". As others have said, the saw must be well aligned and properly adjusted, with an appropriate blade installed. Most table saw blades are much too aggressive for an RAS. Poor alignment, the wrong blade, and to some extent the cheap construction of most post-1950's homeowner RAS's are responsible for the vast majority of run-away RAS carriage reports.

But for an even more authoratitive source, I recently saw the following on page 4 of this circa 1950's DeWalt RAS operating manual, and immediately remembered this thread.

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JPG
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by JPG »

This leads us to the question: Why are recent sliding miter saws being 'pushed' rather than 'pulled'?

Is it because the blade CAN lift out of the kerf unless held firmly against the workpiece?

By 'pushing' .the workpiece is subjected to the lifting force of the blade.


+/- Which is worse? I prefer the part with a long handle and more mass.
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
edma194
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Re: RAS safety I might be wrong ??

Post by edma194 »

I was wondering about sliding miter saws as well. I don't know how similar (or different) RAS and sliding miter saw blades are. A while ago I assumed the sliding miter saw is most often used like any other miter saw where the blade is being pushed down through the board after initially contacting the front edge of the board at a low angle. Since then I've seen them used like an RAF a lot, even if the blade is wider than the board, which it usually is with a 12" blade. For cleaner cuts you can do shallow passes over the top to open up a kerf so the rest of the cut doesn't cause tearing on the top.

So I don't know, and still wonder about this push v. pull debate. Are the blades the same for both types of saws? Does it matter all that much if the work is properly secured, the blade is sharp, and care is taken in operation?
Ed from Rhode Island

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