3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Create a review for a woodworking tool that you are familiar with (Shopsmith brand or Non-Shopsmith) or just post your opinion on a specific tool. Head to head comparisons welcome too.

Moderators: HopefulSSer, admin

Post Reply
RFGuy
Platinum Member
Posts: 2740
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
Location: a suburb of PHX, AZ

3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

I have gotten good use out of my Mark V mounted Shopsmith Router Table, but I am finally ready to retire it for a dedicated router table setup in my shop. I received an Incra LS Positioner Super System from my father-in-law who passed away and will be honored to continue using it in my shop router table. I also bought a Jessem MAST-R-LIFT™ II when it was on sale a while back. So, I am just finishing up the cabinet and about to install everything together, but I want to purchase a big, beefy router to power this setup. So, my question for this thread is that I am soliciting opinions on what router to purchase. IF you were building a new router table, which router would you buy today? Note this router will be dedicated to this task and I intend to use my router lift, so I really only need the router spindle, i.e. I don't care about extra features like a plunge base, etc. for the router. It will be dedicated to use in this router table only so I won't be swapping it in and out.

In the past, I have seen many online reviews coalesce around either the Porter Cable 7518 or the Milwaukee 5625-20 as the "best" router choices for a dedicated router table setup. Since Porter Cable announced last year that they are exiting the router business, I am disinclined to consider them and it looks like inventory has evaporated for them anyway. So, I am leaning towards this Milwaukee router which is 3.5HP and around $350. Reviews have been mixed for this Milwaukee router, but it seems like the negative reviews tend to be more production shops who had issues. My use would be far less than a production shop would have, so I am hoping those negative reviews won't apply for me. Anyone have experience with this router? Or are there other 3+ HP routers that I should consider? Alternatively, I was wondering if I should consider any spindle motors instead, e.g. as are commonly available for CNC's. However, I don't know if there are any of those that are better quality (more reliable, longer life, etc.) and would fit in my router lift. Any suggestions for routers?
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
edma194
Platinum Member
Posts: 1875
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:08 pm

Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by edma194 »

I would get a router that can be mounted in a hand base instead of a spindle motor so it can be more useful if necessary. The Milwaukee has more speed settings, I like that, but with that type of motor I'm not sure the electronic speed control is any better than the old dial controls, it's not a synchronous motor and those are simply no load speeds. The 3.5HP rating doesn't mean much either, there may be no actual performance difference between other ratings I've seen like 3.25HP, 2.5HP, and 2.25HP. I have a Freud* router with a 2.5HP rating that vaporizes hard as a rock zebrawood at 25000RPM with tear out, do you really need better than that for your needs?

*With all Freud tools you must remember that the wood has to want to be cut.
Ed from Rhode Island

510 PowerPro Double Tilt:Greenie PowerPro Drill Press:500 Sanding Shorty w/Belt&Strip Sanders
Super Sawsmith 2000:Scroll Saw w/Stand:Joint-Matic:Power Station:Power Stand:Bandsaw:Joiner:Jigsaw
1961 Goldie:1960 Sawsmith RAS:10ER
RFGuy
Platinum Member
Posts: 2740
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
Location: a suburb of PHX, AZ

Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

edma194 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:50 pm I would get a router that can be mounted in a hand base instead of a spindle motor so it can be more useful if necessary. The Milwaukee has more speed settings, I like that, but with that type of motor I'm not sure the electronic speed control is any better than the old dial controls, it's not a synchronous motor and those are simply no load speeds. The 3.5HP rating doesn't mean much either, there may be no actual performance difference between other ratings I've seen like 3.25HP, 2.5HP, and 2.25HP. I have a Freud* router with a 2.5HP rating that vaporizes hard as a rock zebrawood at 25000RPM with tear out, do you really need better than that for your needs?

*With all Freud tools you must remember that the wood has to want to be cut.
Thanks Ed. I am not familiar with a Freud brand router. I thought Freud only sold cutting tools like router bits and saw blades but not power tools. What is the model # of your Freud router?
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
edma194
Platinum Member
Posts: 1875
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:08 pm

Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by edma194 »

I don't think Freud makes routers anymore. I found this statement on Amazon:
"Everyone who is interested ina Freud router should be aware that they are no longer in the power tool business. All of their remaining inventory, including replacement parts are being sold by Bosch."

This may Bosch router may be the same. I bought it like that one with the plunge base, there's probably a plain base version available.
Ed from Rhode Island

510 PowerPro Double Tilt:Greenie PowerPro Drill Press:500 Sanding Shorty w/Belt&Strip Sanders
Super Sawsmith 2000:Scroll Saw w/Stand:Joint-Matic:Power Station:Power Stand:Bandsaw:Joiner:Jigsaw
1961 Goldie:1960 Sawsmith RAS:10ER
roy_okc
Platinum Member
Posts: 780
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Moore, OK

Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by roy_okc »

RFGuy wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:10 pm IAlternatively, I was wondering if I should consider any spindle motors instead, e.g. as are commonly available for CNC's. However, I don't know if there are any of those that are better quality (more reliable, longer life, etc.) and would fit in my router lift. Any suggestions for routers?
I'm in much the same situation, with a Mast R Lift II and presently a Hitachi router and considering something larger.

I reached out to Incra a couple weeks back about the possibility of using an 80mm (2.2KW/3HP) or 100mm (3.0KW/4HP) spindle since the price is similar to the Milwaukee even without the jacked up prices where you can find them in stock, plus I have experience with a spindle/VFD setup so should be easy for me. Their tech support gave the below sizes for the combos that are listed in the published manual, also said that Jess Em hadn't supplied the sizes for the other combinations. He mentioned that in his experience, the spindle had to be within a few thou or it would cause binding on the lift mechanism, so the C1 and D3 settings are probably too large. He also suggested reaching out to Jess Em to see if they would provide the sizes for the other combinations, but I got busy and forgot to do so.

A1 - 4.200" (106.68mm)
B1 - 3.625" (92.08mm)
C1 - 3.218" (81.74mm)
D3 - 4.143" (105.23mm)
E2 - 3.267" (82.98mm)
F4 - 3.500" (88.90mm)
G3 - 3.320" (84.33mm)

Assuming no alternatives with non-document combinations, I'm wondering if an 80mm spindle couldn't be shimmed up to be close enough to the C1 setting.
Roy

Mark V/510, Mark V/500 with parts for 510 upgrade, bandsaw, jointer, belt sander, DC3300 w/1 micron bag
Sawstop 3HP 36" PCS w/router table insert
Home designed and built CNC router, another CNC router :D desktop size
CNCed G0704 milling machine
Laser engraver
Way too much other stuff and not enough space :rolleyes:
RFGuy
Platinum Member
Posts: 2740
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
Location: a suburb of PHX, AZ

Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

edma194 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:38 pm I don't think Freud makes routers anymore. I found this statement on Amazon:
"Everyone who is interested in a Freud router should be aware that they are no longer in the power tool business. All of their remaining inventory, including replacement parts are being sold by Bosch."
Thanks Ed. I guess I never saw them advertise power tools, or I just didn't pay attention before. I didn't realize they sold them at one point. Yeah, this is one thing I am trying to factor into my purchase. With Porter Cable exiting the router business that means no replacement parts and/or service so it would be great to buy a big brand that hopefully will be around for awhile. Of course, I know I could always replace the complete router if it breaks, but just good to have options when making a new purchase. IF I went with the Milwaukee, I was going to go ahead and buy extra brushes for it just to have in case they stop making this router or replacement parts. With regard to HP, yeah I know HP ratings aren't a great way to compare products because of how some manufacturers specify it. I was just trying to say that I am looking for as big of a router as I can get since it will be permanently installed in this router table and needs to be able to easily handle large bits, e.g. raised panel bits. I would even be okay with having to add a dedicated electrical circuit for this, so I am not even limited by the 15A rating on most large format routers.
Last edited by RFGuy on Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
RFGuy
Platinum Member
Posts: 2740
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
Location: a suburb of PHX, AZ

Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

roy_okc wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:13 pm I'm in much the same situation, with a Mast R Lift II and presently a Hitachi router and considering something larger.

I reached out to Incra a couple weeks back about the possibility of using an 80mm (2.2KW/3HP) or 100mm (3.0KW/4HP) spindle since the price is similar to the Milwaukee even without the jacked up prices where you can find them in stock, plus I have experience with a spindle/VFD setup so should be easy for me. Their tech support gave the below sizes for the combos that are listed in the published manual, also said that Jess Em hadn't supplied the sizes for the other combinations. He mentioned that in his experience, the spindle had to be within a few thou or it would cause binding on the lift mechanism, so the C1 and D3 settings are probably too large. He also suggested reaching out to Jess Em to see if they would provide the sizes for the other combinations, but I got busy and forgot to do so.

A1 - 4.200" (106.68mm)
B1 - 3.625" (92.08mm)
C1 - 3.218" (81.74mm)
D3 - 4.143" (105.23mm)
E2 - 3.267" (82.98mm)
F4 - 3.500" (88.90mm)
G3 - 3.320" (84.33mm)

Assuming no alternatives with non-document combinations, I'm wondering if an 80mm spindle couldn't be shimmed up to be close enough to the C1 setting.
Thanks Roy. I really appreciate all of this information. Yeah, I had heard that CNC's typically have more of an industrial spindle motor (continuous duty cycle) typically, so I would presume they have better reliability/longevity compared to an off the shelf router. Maybe I am wrong on this, but if true, I wonder if I wouldn't be better off trying to get a spindle motor that will fit the router lift instead of just buying a router. So, I know nothing really about spindle motors. Are there any brands you can recommend for me to take a look at? I am planning on researching this a bit (while I finish the cabinet) before making my purchase, so if I find anything that might fit the lift, I will let you know.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
roy_okc
Platinum Member
Posts: 780
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Moore, OK

Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by roy_okc »

RFGuy wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:56 pm Thanks Roy. I really appreciate all of this information. Yeah, I had heard that CNC's typically have more of an industrial spindle motor (continuous duty cycle) typically, so I would presume they have better reliability/longevity compared to an off the shelf router. Maybe I am wrong on this, but if true, I wonder if I wouldn't be better off trying to get a spindle motor that will fit the router lift instead of just buying a router. So, I know nothing really about spindle motors. Are there any brands you can recommend for me to take a look at? I am planning on researching this a bit (while I finish the cabinet) before making my purchase, so if I find anything that might fit the lift, I will let you know.
RF Guy,

I'll toss this link to a page of spindles and VFDs for reference, https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.c ... nc-spindle. I've bought various things from them in the past, they are US based, but much of their products are Chinese made; I've not had any problems with the items I've bought from them.

There are two main parts that you'd need, a spindle and a VFD. The VFD converts AC wall voltage to 3-phase for the spindle. Up to 2.2KW VFDs have options for 110V or 220V. Here's a link to a 220V 2.2KW VFD. I _think_ the spindle doesn't care what the wall voltage is. Spindles are either air or water cooled, I think in this case air cooled would be fine unless you plan to run heavily for extended amounts of time (many minutes or hours) and don't have any airflow to it, such as a closed box with no vacuum connected to the box; in my case, I have the lift in my SawStop table with a box enclosure and vacuum port so there would be no problem with airflow.

The 2.2KW spindles are the smallest that will take a 1/2" bit, but you can use down to 1/16" by way of different sized collets; for convenience you'd probably want to have multiple collet nuts, one for each size collet you would expect to use. The collet "family" on these is ER20. This is would be my likely candidates if I went through the site, although it is presently out of stock: https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.c ... ng-spindle, although I'd have to verify that it doesn't care about wall voltage if I were to use a 110V VFD.

You'd also need wiring to go from the wall voltage to the VFD and then VFD to spindle.

Other random things:
- These are much, much quieter than routers.
- No brushes.
- The spindle case is pretty substantial, but I think they generally are used with a cylindrical holding system. Would probably have to be careful tightening them in the Mast R Lift.
- I have the 800W spindle that is spec'ed at 65mm diameter. I measured it at maybe 1-2/100s under that, so assume the 80mm spindle would have similar very close tolerances.
- Runout is spec'ed at 0.005mm (2/10,000"). I'd be somewhat surprised to get one that good, and don't even have a way or knowledge to measure to that degree, but even a "bad" spindle is very likely to be far better than a very good router. You'd also have to consider runout in the collet, and that is an item that you definitely get what you pay for; however, to replace a wood router, cheap is probably more than adequate.
- The display/button unit on the linked VFD that, if like mine, can be removed from the unit and has a few inches ribbon cable, so the VFD could be mounted a bit lower and then the display pulled out to spin it up.
- Would need to consider how to integrate a master power switch and possibly an e-stop button. I suspect there is a way to have a separate start/stop button wired in rather than being forced to use the tiny button on the display unit. Some/many/all(?) VFDs have an option to brake and settings for how aggressive to brake upon using the stop button.
- I can't remember if the VFD needs 12V power as well as mains. Sorry, it's been too long since I've been in my CNC's control box which is set up for computer control now rather than manual.

Let me know any specific questions you might have.
Roy

Mark V/510, Mark V/500 with parts for 510 upgrade, bandsaw, jointer, belt sander, DC3300 w/1 micron bag
Sawstop 3HP 36" PCS w/router table insert
Home designed and built CNC router, another CNC router :D desktop size
CNCed G0704 milling machine
Laser engraver
Way too much other stuff and not enough space :rolleyes:
roy_okc
Platinum Member
Posts: 780
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Moore, OK

Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by roy_okc »

Here's a video of a guy who built a one-axis (Z) CNC as a router table. You can hear how much quieter the spindle is compared to a typical router. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eleFxjkTQx0. This is part 3 of a 4-part build series.
Roy

Mark V/510, Mark V/500 with parts for 510 upgrade, bandsaw, jointer, belt sander, DC3300 w/1 micron bag
Sawstop 3HP 36" PCS w/router table insert
Home designed and built CNC router, another CNC router :D desktop size
CNCed G0704 milling machine
Laser engraver
Way too much other stuff and not enough space :rolleyes:
RFGuy
Platinum Member
Posts: 2740
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
Location: a suburb of PHX, AZ

Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

Roy,

Thanks. You have given me a lot to think about. If spindles are quieter than routers then that would be a definite plus for me. I never liked the noise level that routers make...some of them scream even without a bit in the collet. I know the Milwaukee 5625-20 is supposed to be much quieter than the Porter Cable 7518 router (according to reviews), but it is still a router. From another forum I found some info comparing/contrasting routers and spindles (helpful for a spindle newbie like me). I don't mind wiring 240V to it. I haven't used a VFD before, but I would be comfortable hooking one up. It looks like spindles are typically quieter and have less runout than a router, so if I can find one that would fit the MAST-R-LIFT™ II then I should be able to go this route. The couple of concerns that I have are:

1. With the spindle mounted upside down in a router table, is there any issue with sawdust that might fall down into it? I mean the spindle normally mounts with the collet facing down in a CNC so I don't know if there are any bearing or motor issues with it being rotated 180°.

2. I just need to make sure that the spindle housing is strong enough to not be damaged when clamped in the MAST-R-LIFT™ II. I know routers have a thick outer wall for this, but maybe not all spindles do?

Bottomline for me is this is already a big investment. I am reusing an Incra LS Positioner Super System for this router table, but I also bought the Incra CleanSweep Dust Collection Cabinet. Also, I bought the Jessem MAST-R-LIFT™ II. With all of this and the cabinet (plywood = $$$ right now) that I am building it has proven to be quite an expensive endeavor, but it will be my dream router station in my shop. IF I can get better performance with a spindle, even if it costs a bit more than the Milwaukee 5625-20, then it makes sense. I want the router/spindle to be a high enough quality & highest performance so that it is on par with the quality of everything else in my router system, i.e. so I don't have to spend to replace a router in a few years.

Excerpt: from (https://openbuilds.com/threads/what-is- ... ter.11874/)
Router: A router runs loud this has to do with the type of frequency's involved in turning the motor.
Spindle:A Spindle in Quiet in comparison because it drives with a High frequency.
Routers : Can plug directly into the wall.
Spindle: requires a 3phase inverter/driver.
Routers: have higher run out
Spindles: have a or should have a very low run out.
Routers: are more prone to bogging down wile putting heavy loads causing finish problems
Spindles: can take a lot more load without bogging.
Routers: are cheap
Spindles:are not
Routers:are easy
Spindles:are not
Routers: are air cooled
Spindles : may be water cooled and you need pumps tubes water etc..
There are more differences but this should give you a good idea
Last edited by RFGuy on Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
Post Reply