3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

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DLB
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by DLB »

RFGuy wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:07 pm Yeah, I forgot about the taper angle. ER collets are meant to mount in a taper, but I guess I was thinking of it more like those PreciseBits collets that are ER like. They claim these fit multiple different router brands, but I guess they must be doing something special with that collet nut because the drive shaft on those routers are NOT tapered inside as far as I know. I guess that must also be a difference with that new Spinrite router then, i.e. it has a tapered drive shaft.
The Bosch is tapered on the inside of the shaft. I made no attempt to measure the angle, seems difficult with the tools at hand.
RFGuy wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:55 pm Just an update...I finally got up with someone at Elaire corporation and their response to me is below. I am going to try them out. Their runout looks comparable to the ER20 collets used in the Woodpeckers Spinrite router. Kind of surprised they don't furnish a collet nut, so you have to buy or re-purpose the Milwaukee one for it.

They do not include the collet nut and the TIR is +/-0.001.
IIUC the measurement method advocated by Precision Bits would always yield 0 or a positive number for TIR. (I'm no expert, I have a couple of Dial Indicators but no DTIs and I've only used one a few times. But the tools are similar.) I'm not sure what this "+/-" implies, but if I was buying I might want clarification.

- David
RFGuy
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

DLB wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:28 pm IIUC the measurement method advocated by Precision Bits would always yield 0 or a positive number for TIR. (I'm no expert, I have a couple of Dial Indicators but no DTIs and I've only used one a few times. But the tools are similar.) I'm not sure what this "+/-" implies, but if I was buying I might want clarification.

- David
David,

Do you have more info on this? I am failing to visualize/understand how any dial indicator measurement would result in a positive only measurement. You would have to accidentally land on the lowest spot possible on the shaft/collet to start with in order for it to be positive only which doesn't seem very likely in practice to me.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
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DLB
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by DLB »

RFGuy wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:35 pm Do you have more info on this? I am failing to visualize/understand how any dial indicator measurement would result in a positive only measurement. You would have to accidentally land on the lowest spot possible on the shaft/collet to start with in order for it to be positive only which doesn't seem very likely in practice to me.
You've got it about right. They rotate the spindle to find the minimum then zero the DTI on that (optional or near-zero is okay). They then rotate to find maximum deflection. Subtract MIN from MAX = TIR. (So if MIN was negative it would still be algebraically subtracted from MAX.)

They definitely advocate a Dial Test Indicator (DTI) over a Dial Indicator. I doubt it makes much difference to those of us measuring larger numbers and using 1/4" and 1/2" shanks. But generally a DTI has better resolution and exerts much less pressure on the object being measured.

In more detail: https://www.precisebits.com/tutorials/s ... runout.htm

- David
roy_okc
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by roy_okc »

I received my SpinRite router 6 or 7 days after ordering it from Woodpeckers. It was simply packaged with some styrofoam within a SpinRite box and then within a Woodpeckers box, nothing special but more than adequate. I took it out and did a quick power check and ran the speed up and down, all was good. It came with two offset style wrenches, 1/2" and 1/4" ER20 collets, and one ER20 hex nut; no base is included as it is intended to be used in router lifts.

Today I finally got one of those round tuits and got it mounted in my Incra Mast R Lift II lift. While swapping the routers, I did some sound level checks against the Hitachi M12VC I've had for quite some time. At the time I bought the Hitachi, they were one of the quieter routers compared to other brands/models in the same class, e.g., Bosch 1617, Porter Cable, etc.

I used a phone app for measuring decibel levels. My measuring system wasn't real precise, but I tried to measure from the same heights and distances. I had my garage door open, there was a good bit of wind outside, giving an ambient background noise level of 42 dB just prior to my first measurement. I measured each router sitting on the cast iron table saw top, with no collet/nut, around 12" away and 12" above the table top. I also measured in the lift with a 3/4" roundover bit, the largest I have, installed and raised to full work height with fence 8" or 10" away, about 14" away from the center of the bit, 12" above the table, with an insert with 2-5/8" hole installed. The router sits in a metal Sawstop router box and is mounted in a cast iron table.

The specs on the Hitachi are 8,000-24,000 RPM. The SpinRite specs from 10,000-22,000 RPM.

Below are the levels I recorded. The Hitachi's no-load noise level spec is listed at 79.5 dB, but no indication of the speed and distance at which that was measured, so obviously my measurements are lower than expected.

----------------------- Hitachi ------- SpinRite
Max speed, in lift____73 dB______71 dB
Min speed, in lift____57-58 dB___61-62 dB
Max speed on table__68 dB______71 dB
Min speed on table __60 dB______62-63 dB

I was pleasantly surprised that the two had nearly identical noise levels with the minor differences in the table, likely attributable to the different min/max speeds between the two models. I noticed that there was significant wind noise at the high speeds from the roundover bit itself.

I was pleased with it in use as well. I used the aforementioned roundover bit on some 1-1/2" walnut to turn into large dowels to test my threader for eventually making an all-wood Moxon vise. I ran this at the lowest speed; the soft spinup was smooth, taking a few seconds to get up to full speed. I lowered the bit from full height for the first set of passes on the first piece, then lifted to full height for the second passes. I didn't notice any significant RPM drop, so I ran it at full height on the second piece and, again, didn't notice any significant drop. I eventually made an amazing discovery, that dust extraction works a whole lot better if the dust hose is actually connected to the dust collector :rolleyes:.

I'll likely get an 1/8" collet and two more nuts so I don't have to swap between the one nut to change bit sizes. I have several 1/8"-shaft end mills for my CNCs, some with reduced diameter cutting ends, and assuming minimal runout I should be able to use some fairly fine sizes although I can't see going much smaller than maybe 1/16" although I'm not sure what circumstances I'd use something that small.

When/if I can figure out how to precisely measure runout, I'll post further updates. I'll also see if I can measure RPM with my digital tach.
Roy

Mark V/510, Mark V/500 with parts for 510 upgrade, bandsaw, jointer, belt sander, DC3300 w/1 micron bag
Sawstop 3HP 36" PCS w/router table insert
Home designed and built CNC router, another CNC router :D desktop size
CNCed G0704 milling machine
Laser engraver
Way too much other stuff and not enough space :rolleyes:
sehast
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by sehast »

Sounds like a solid performer and not overly expensive. The ER-20 would be great since that is what I have on my CNC spindle and have a vast array of collets. I will keep it in mind if my Milwaukee ever gives out.
RFGuy
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

Roy,

Thanks for the update. I measured sound level on my Milwaukee a few inches from it, so it was kind of worst case. There is no standard out there, e.g. I think a lot of dust collector manufacturers/reviewers arbitrarily measure sound level at 10ft. from the dust collector. Most router manufacturers don't even spec sound level. Did you give up on finding a spindle that could fit the MAST-R-LIFT II ?

Once I get my Milwaukee mounted in the table, I plan to measure sound level again and will probably have to sound proof the cabinet. Uggghhh. :(
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
sehast
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by sehast »

Mine is pretty quiet if I don't run it above 18,000 RPM which I rarely do. I have it in a MDF box as part of my table with no other sound proofing. The noise level is not much different than my water cooled spindle but then again I might not be the best one to subjectively measure sound levels. After several years on the flight line with no ear protection in my youth my ears are far from precise.
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jsburger
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by jsburger »

RFGuy wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:14 pm Roy,

Thanks for the update. I measured sound level on my Milwaukee a few inches from it, so it was kind of worst case. There is no standard out there, e.g. I think a lot of dust collector manufacturers/reviewers arbitrarily measure sound level at 10ft. from the dust collector. Most router manufacturers don't even spec sound level. Did you give up on finding a spindle that could fit the MAST-R-LIFT II ?

Once I get my Milwaukee mounted in the table, I plan to measure sound level again and will probably have to sound proof the cabinet. Uggghhh. :(
I am not sure the relevance of measuring the sound level a few inches from the router. I think the only meaningful measurement would be to stand next to your router table in the operating position and measure the sound level next to your ear while making a cut. Probably need a third hand. :) Anything else is irrelevant.
John & Mary Burger
Eagle's Lair Woodshop
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RFGuy
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by RFGuy »

jsburger wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:47 pm I am not sure the relevance of measuring the sound level a few inches from the router. I think the only meaningful measurement would be to stand next to your router table in the operating position and measure the sound level next to your ear while making a cut. Probably need a third hand. :) Anything else is irrelevant.
Well, like I said, it is "arbitrary". Sound level drops with an inverse square law so where you measure noise level IS important. In the Woodpeckers video for the Spinrite router, you can see they had a smartphone with a noise level app running. They placed the smartphone only inches from the router, so I copied this to kinda get similar numbers on my Milwaukee to compare against the Spinrite numbers in the video. I will be more interested in the noise level numbers that I get after it is mounted in my router table and then to compare those numbers after I attempt to soundproof the cabinet. When I do those I will measure at 2-3' above the router table to simulate the proximity of my ear to the router table.

P.S. Woodpeckers kind of cheated the test a bit because they placed the iPhone standing upright on the router table. The mic is in the bottom of the iPhone, but the holes for the mic would be partially or totally obscured by sitting on the router table. This could have compromised them getting an accurate noise level reading.
Last edited by RFGuy on Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
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jsburger
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Re: 3.5HP Router or Spindle Purchase???

Post by jsburger »

sehast wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:17 pm Mine is pretty quiet if I don't run it above 18,000 RPM which I rarely do. I have it in a MDF box as part of my table with no other sound proofing. The noise level is not much different than my water cooled spindle but then again I might not be the best one to subjectively measure sound levels. After several years on the flight line with no ear protection in my youth my ears are far from precise.
I can relate to that. 24 years on the flight line in the Air Force with fighter jets. With double hearing protection and I still got a high frequency loss.
John & Mary Burger
Eagle's Lair Woodshop
Hooper, UT
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