I don't know about other people, and I'm surely risking putting another tool on some politico's bullseye, but I've hurt myself more with my stationary belt sanders than the tablesaw. I've also skinned a few knuckles with my drill press. And let's not even think about my lathes.....
At least this bill does say "new", but isn't that where it starts? And if it is now a legal liability to sell new saws that aren't idiot-proof, how long before some overzealous prosecutor chases it down the logic trail and try to put someone in bankruptcy or jail for selling a used saw without said technology?
Just sayin .....
Gass has a co-conspiritor
Moderator: admin
Where does it stop?
'55 Greenie #292284 (Mar-55), '89 SS 510 #020989, Mark VII #408551 (sold 10/14/12), SS Band Saw, (SS 500 #36063 (May-79) now gone to son-in-law as of 11-11), Magna bandsaw, Magna jointer 16185 (May-54), Magna belt sander SS28712 (Dec-82), Magna jigsaw SS4397 (Dec-78), SS biscuit joiner, Zyliss (knockoff) vise, 20+ hand planes, 60s Craftsman tablesaw, CarbaTec mini-lathe, and the usual pile of tools. Hermit of the Hills Woodworks, a hillbilly in the foothills of the Ozarks, scraping by.
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notfoxworthy
- Silver Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:11 pm
- Location: Johnson City Tn.
Hope I don't offend anyone other than our so called "public servants" but here I go. Garnola law,(what ain't fruit&nuts is flakes) has,is,and will consume us all before much longer,this country has lost it's path,forgotten our solders sacrafices, and most of all the GOD of our forefathers! Ya'll this is just another way of controlling the masses and ruleing with the old iron fist.Speaking of idiots go for a drive or to a city counsel meeting,makes me wanna hurl!Any idiot knows that a pocket knife will cut and fire burns,much less power tools have there own dangers.Maybe the buyer is posed to smarter than the tool ya think?Just goes to show how STUPID,STUPID,STUPID, our "public servants" are, guess woodworkers are somewhat more intelligent and aware of things than any "public servant" and most drivers out there.I could go for something spritual here but this not the place for that but I'll say this in closing,please,please be ready to go please do, seeya bye.
THEY"ll PRY MY SHOPSMITH FROM MY DEAD HANDS
THEY"ll PRY MY SHOPSMITH FROM MY DEAD HANDS
Whenever I read these comments railing against CPSC because the nanny state is interfering in our lives and impinging on our freedoms I chuckle.
Do any one of us currently have the freedom to go out and buy a new table saw that has only the specific safety equipment (or none) that we individually think a new saw should have on it? The answer is a resounding no. Currently, PTI and UL, two private organizations, get together and decide for the rest of us exactly what minimum safety equipment must go on all new saws and you and I get zero say in the matter.
A bunch of years ago, PTI and UL got together and mandated standards for splitters and blade guards for all new saws. Most were terrible (Shopsmith's was one of the few good ones). But if you wanted a new table saw, you had to buy a saw with this terrible equipment even if you didn't want it. A lot of us took our new saws home and put that splitter and blade guard we'd just involuntarily paid for in a corner. C'mon, admit that at one point or another you have done just that. Go on, raise your hands (if your lucky enough to still have 'em). I've got a blade guard/splitter from an old contractor saw sitting in the corner of my shop right now. A lot of us would have liked the option to buy a new saw without those lousy splitters and blade guards. But PTI/UL didn't give us that choice.
Then, just a few years ago, PTI and UL got together and decided to mandate European-style riving knives and a new style blade guard on all newly manufactured table saws. So, if you go to buy a new table saw today you must buy a saw with this safety equipment. Now I happen to think those were pretty good things to mandate and a big improvement over the old designs. In fact I think PTI/UL were long overdue in putting these improvements in place.
But regardless of what I think about the benefits of riving knives, you can bet there were and probably still are quite a few woodworkers who, given the choice, would happily pay less to get a new saw without that safety equipment. Maybe they think they don't need it because they have safely operated their saws for decades without any problems and feel that the guard and riving knife will just get in the way and slow them down. But woodworkers who feel that way don't get a choice. Want a new table saw and you will pay for the PTI/UL mandated design.
My point is, the freedom and choice everybody is pounding their chests over is an illusion. PTI and UL get together and set the standards and if you want a new saw, you get what PTI and UL have decided is best for you. It is kind of like PTI and UL run their own private, for profit nanny state and we are their unwilling subjects. And nobody ever stops to think about it much less raise a peep about it.
Assuming CPSC ends up mandating that the PTI manufacturers adopt some kind of flesh-sensing blade-stopping technology on new saws, I don't think what CPSC is doing to PTI is any worse than what PTI and UL already do to us. And in some respects it is better. I'd rather be ruled by CPSC than PTI. At least I can vote for (or against) the guy who appoints the members of CPSC; and I can always call upon my Congressman and Senator to undo a CPSC rule if I think its dumb. Try that with PTI/UL.
By the way, even if CPSC does nothing (which I think is unlikely) does anybody honestly believe that it won't just be a matter of time before PTI/UL mandate this or a similar technology on all new saws? Once Gass demonstrated that a table saw could be made that would not inflict catastrophic injuries when hands contact the blade, it was inevitable that companies selling saws without this technology would be subjected to products liability suits from people (and their insurers) who suffered catastrophic injuries from new saws that don't have the technology. The PTI companies won't survive if they don't do something eventually to avoid these losses.
The fight at CPSC between PTI/UL and Gass is really about who will get the money from these safety improvements. Gass wants it mandated now so he can get the benefit out his patent rights, which won't last forever. PTI would rather not pay Gass to license his patented technology. To avoid these costs, the PTI companies will try to get CPSC to back down so the PTI companies can wait until either Gass' patent rights expire or the PTI companies finish development of their own technology (which they are already working on), at which point they will simply tie Gass up in patent infringement litigation for years. Either way, once PTI and UL can implement this safety technology on their own terms i.e. get all the financial benefit from the mandate to implement the technology, you can bet that PTI and UL will mandate this technology on all new saws and you will have no choice but to buy it and pay for it if and when you want a new saw. It is just a matter of time.
I yield the soap box.
Do any one of us currently have the freedom to go out and buy a new table saw that has only the specific safety equipment (or none) that we individually think a new saw should have on it? The answer is a resounding no. Currently, PTI and UL, two private organizations, get together and decide for the rest of us exactly what minimum safety equipment must go on all new saws and you and I get zero say in the matter.
A bunch of years ago, PTI and UL got together and mandated standards for splitters and blade guards for all new saws. Most were terrible (Shopsmith's was one of the few good ones). But if you wanted a new table saw, you had to buy a saw with this terrible equipment even if you didn't want it. A lot of us took our new saws home and put that splitter and blade guard we'd just involuntarily paid for in a corner. C'mon, admit that at one point or another you have done just that. Go on, raise your hands (if your lucky enough to still have 'em). I've got a blade guard/splitter from an old contractor saw sitting in the corner of my shop right now. A lot of us would have liked the option to buy a new saw without those lousy splitters and blade guards. But PTI/UL didn't give us that choice.
Then, just a few years ago, PTI and UL got together and decided to mandate European-style riving knives and a new style blade guard on all newly manufactured table saws. So, if you go to buy a new table saw today you must buy a saw with this safety equipment. Now I happen to think those were pretty good things to mandate and a big improvement over the old designs. In fact I think PTI/UL were long overdue in putting these improvements in place.
But regardless of what I think about the benefits of riving knives, you can bet there were and probably still are quite a few woodworkers who, given the choice, would happily pay less to get a new saw without that safety equipment. Maybe they think they don't need it because they have safely operated their saws for decades without any problems and feel that the guard and riving knife will just get in the way and slow them down. But woodworkers who feel that way don't get a choice. Want a new table saw and you will pay for the PTI/UL mandated design.
My point is, the freedom and choice everybody is pounding their chests over is an illusion. PTI and UL get together and set the standards and if you want a new saw, you get what PTI and UL have decided is best for you. It is kind of like PTI and UL run their own private, for profit nanny state and we are their unwilling subjects. And nobody ever stops to think about it much less raise a peep about it.
Assuming CPSC ends up mandating that the PTI manufacturers adopt some kind of flesh-sensing blade-stopping technology on new saws, I don't think what CPSC is doing to PTI is any worse than what PTI and UL already do to us. And in some respects it is better. I'd rather be ruled by CPSC than PTI. At least I can vote for (or against) the guy who appoints the members of CPSC; and I can always call upon my Congressman and Senator to undo a CPSC rule if I think its dumb. Try that with PTI/UL.
By the way, even if CPSC does nothing (which I think is unlikely) does anybody honestly believe that it won't just be a matter of time before PTI/UL mandate this or a similar technology on all new saws? Once Gass demonstrated that a table saw could be made that would not inflict catastrophic injuries when hands contact the blade, it was inevitable that companies selling saws without this technology would be subjected to products liability suits from people (and their insurers) who suffered catastrophic injuries from new saws that don't have the technology. The PTI companies won't survive if they don't do something eventually to avoid these losses.
The fight at CPSC between PTI/UL and Gass is really about who will get the money from these safety improvements. Gass wants it mandated now so he can get the benefit out his patent rights, which won't last forever. PTI would rather not pay Gass to license his patented technology. To avoid these costs, the PTI companies will try to get CPSC to back down so the PTI companies can wait until either Gass' patent rights expire or the PTI companies finish development of their own technology (which they are already working on), at which point they will simply tie Gass up in patent infringement litigation for years. Either way, once PTI and UL can implement this safety technology on their own terms i.e. get all the financial benefit from the mandate to implement the technology, you can bet that PTI and UL will mandate this technology on all new saws and you will have no choice but to buy it and pay for it if and when you want a new saw. It is just a matter of time.
I yield the soap box.
I understand your sentiments, but it would be a lot easier to take your statements seriously if you would forgo the religious claptrap.notfoxworthy wrote:Hope I don't offend anyone other than our so called "public servants" but here I go. Garnola law,(what ain't fruit&nuts is flakes) has,is,and will consume us all before much longer,this country has lost it's path,forgotten our solders sacrafices, and most of all the GOD of our forefathers! Ya'll this is just another way of controlling the masses and ruleing with the old iron fist.Speaking of idiots go for a drive or to a city counsel meeting,makes me wanna hurl!Any idiot knows that a pocket knife will cut and fire burns,much less power tools have there own dangers.Maybe the buyer is posed to smarter than the tool ya think?Just goes to show how STUPID,STUPID,STUPID, our "public servants" are, guess woodworkers are somewhat more intelligent and aware of things than any "public servant" and most drivers out there.I could go for something spritual here but this not the place for that but I'll say this in closing,please,please be ready to go please do, seeya bye.
THEY"ll PRY MY SHOPSMITH FROM MY DEAD HANDS
"Gods of our Forefathers"?
That dog just ain't gonna hunt.
Not on a public forum anyway.
Oh, and to take it one step further, it's too easy to assume that the public servants are stupid, they really aren't.
What they mostly are is greedy and self serving, like rats on a sinking ship. Grab all the graft and payoffs while the grabbin is good. It (greed) is what got us in our current global mess. Greed and Graft gets most of these stupid ass laws written and passed. It's ALWAYS been like this, and until there is a total and complete collapse of our political system, it will continue.
Go read some George Orwell. Please.
www.wirewerkes.com
Hiding in a Joshua Tree.
Hiding in a Joshua Tree.
I think it's a mix of that, and them genuinely trying to "take care" of the citizens. They just don't understand that we don't need nor do many of us want them to "take care" of us. We can take care of ourselves better than they could, and we would be stronger as a nation for it.wiredone wrote:What they mostly are is greedy and self serving, like rats on a sinking ship.
Heath
Central Louisiana
-10ER - SN 13927, Born 1949, Acquired October 2008, Restored November, 2008
-10ER - SN 35630, Born 1950, Acquired April 2009, Restored May 2009, A34 Jigsaw
-Mark V - SN 212052, Born 1986, Acquired Sept 2009, Restored March 2010, Bandsaw
-10ER - SN 39722, Born 1950, Acquired March 2011, awaiting restoration
Central Louisiana
-10ER - SN 13927, Born 1949, Acquired October 2008, Restored November, 2008
-10ER - SN 35630, Born 1950, Acquired April 2009, Restored May 2009, A34 Jigsaw
-Mark V - SN 212052, Born 1986, Acquired Sept 2009, Restored March 2010, Bandsaw
-10ER - SN 39722, Born 1950, Acquired March 2011, awaiting restoration
While I'm sure that's true for you and some others, it's not true for everyone.pennview wrote:Mentioning God doesn't offend me and has no bearing on whether I take someone serious or not.
www.wirewerkes.com
Hiding in a Joshua Tree.
Hiding in a Joshua Tree.
Different people get offended by different things, it's all relative.
I personally get annoyed, sometimes angry and always saddened ( but not offended) when I see lazy spelling and really awful grammar used on a regular basis. But That's just me.
My point with the religious connotations was that folks assume that believing and worshiping a "god" is the default for being socially acceptable. It's not.
To me and many others, it's arrogance in motion.
I've been called to the mat on this forum, (via PM) for my colorful language.
I have since toned it down after re-examining my usage of said colorful expletives.
I personally get annoyed, sometimes angry and always saddened ( but not offended) when I see lazy spelling and really awful grammar used on a regular basis. But That's just me.
My point with the religious connotations was that folks assume that believing and worshiping a "god" is the default for being socially acceptable. It's not.
To me and many others, it's arrogance in motion.
I've been called to the mat on this forum, (via PM) for my colorful language.
I have since toned it down after re-examining my usage of said colorful expletives.
www.wirewerkes.com
Hiding in a Joshua Tree.
Hiding in a Joshua Tree.