Bandsaw and the PowerPro

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wurlitzerwilly
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Post by wurlitzerwilly »

reible wrote:Hi,

In the not so distance past I was at one of the lowes demos and watched and especially listened to the bandsaw in action cutting a "flower". Not much stress involved with the cut so maybe this doesn't count, anyway I heard no "odd" noises during the project.

The coupler was stock shopsmith, as was everything else, including the new double tilt bases. I was quite interested in seeing how the tilt bases worked in real life. So, one question that comes to mind is how many of the users with bandsaw issues have the new ends and how many have the original ends?

Another questions is, are there anyone of you users of the powerpro/bandsaw who have not experienced problems from day one? Or put another way are any shipments coming out with no issues with the bandsaw?

Ed
I have the original ends but I'm waiting now for the new double tilt. They've been shipped, but will take at least another week to arrive in the UK via Wa.

I haven't made any software adjustments yet, as I'm waiting for the new power coupler and will 'tune' everything together. I also intend to drop the cover and check the set screw on the motor pulley. I hope it's easy to get at.

I had a further issue yesterday whilst using the jointer. I'd left the table saw rip blade in place and the set screw came loose on that. Simple answer - don't leave the blade on when jointing, but it's the oddest phenomenon I've ever encountered on a machine. Look at the 100s of screws on an automobile, which never come loose, despite the vibrations.
Regards,

Alan.
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SDSSmith
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Post by SDSSmith »

reible wrote:Hi,

This sounds like an great idea! And, perhaps well over due by Shopsmith, so I'm all for it even with out having a powerpro to play with.

I'd like to see the values of the settings added by others as well. Both the before and after would help. We might even find that everyone ends up with the same values??

Is there a label with date/version or anything else on the powerpro?

Any easter egg from the display to give a date/version?

Anyway I'm looking forward to some good adventures here.

Ed
I have not heard from the tech gurus at SS yet and do not have the values yet, but here is a rough shot of my PP software version at startup:

[ATTACH]17342[/ATTACH]
Attachments
pp ver no..jpg
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Rob in San Diego
Email: SDSSmith51 AT gmail.com
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wurlitzerwilly
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Post by wurlitzerwilly »

SDSSmith wrote:I have not heard from the tech gurus at SS yet and do not have the values yet, but here is a rough shot of my PP software version at startup:

[ATTACH]17342[/ATTACH]
From memory, that's the same version as mine, which was purchased last year.
Regards,

Alan.
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ppengineeratss
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Post by ppengineeratss »

Greetings all;

The cat is out of the bag. You all now know how to change the programming parameters of your PowerPro Headstock. You also know how to ruin your PowerPro, void the Factory Warranty, destroy many of your accessories and do bodily harm to your person and bystanders in your shop!

Be advised, that every change made to the program causes a reaction somewhere else in the program… at another speed… at another current load… at another torque.

The changes stated by “micharltoc” are correct in theory but changing these parameters randomly as he suggests is dangerous. These changes can cause damage to the electronics in your PowerPro, damage to your major and minor accessories, cause injury to yourself AND void your Shopsmith Factory Warrantee. In Michael’s case this works for him but the IrOFFSET setting is 40-points higher than we at Shopsmith and the engineers at TeknaTool recommend. Factory setting for the IrOFFSET is 82. When we work with a customer over the phone, we have him set the IrOFFSET to a number in the mid 90’s. This is what we have found to be the best for noise reduction and minimal over-speeding.

The higher the IrOFFSET, the greater the over-speed problem. In Michael’s example of the Bandsaw, by his own admission in the last lines of his post ”The over speeding is not much of an issue because…” he recognizes a problem with the machine running faster than it should. He is correct, the over-speed slows with load but when the IrOFFSET is too high, the over-speed will be way past the recommended speed for the Bandsaw. In addition, this change in the IrOFFSET will effect all other operations at all speeds. This causes them to over-speed, not by several hundred RPM as in the example of the Bandsaw, but by several thousand rpm at Table Saw and Planer speeds.

The over-speed increase is proportional. Changing the IrOFFSET to the point where it causes the Headstock to over-speed will change all speeds by the percentage of the increase. For example, the Bandsaw normally runs at 1000-RPM. If changing the IrOFFSET lets the speed increase to 2000 RPM, then it has doubled the “idle” speed. This will throw tires from the Bandsaw. Consider the Belt Sander at 1900 RPM, the Table Saw at 3450 RPM or the Planer at 4500 RPM. These speeds would also be doubled. This would certainly cause damage to the Belt Sander at 3800 RPM. The Table Saw with a spinning blade running at 6900 RPM, would be down-right dangerous as would the cutter head of the planer spinning at 9000 RPM. AND this is the result of changing ONLY ONE of the programming parameters. There are many more that can be changes with similar dire consequences.

Do yourselves a favor…DON’T change the PowerPro program! You can, AND WILL do serious damage to your machinery and cause serious personal injury to yourself and any visitors to your shop.

Work with us here. If you are experiencing the problems that Michael was with the Bandsaw, PLEASE call Shopsmith Customer Service (800) 543-7586. We want to work out these issues with you individually. Every machine and every circumstance is different. Thank you.

Have a GREAT day!!!!
Jim

michaeltoc wrote:Here it is:

(I'll also start a new thread - it may make searching easier)



ADJUSTING THE POWERPRO SETTINGS

*** DISCLAIMER ***
This procedure was given to me by ShopSmith Tech Support to solve the banging noise issue while using the bandsaw. It involves making changes to two settings. Please read and follow this carefully, as I don’t know what will happen if the wrong parameter is changed.

1) Press “LOCK” and “9500” at the same time.
2) Press “2000”. You will be prompted to enter the Service Password (3210) as follows:
i) Press “900” to set the first digit to 3
ii) Press “1350” to set the second digit to 2
iii) Press “2000” to set the third digit to 1
iv) The display should now read “3210”. Press “CONFIRM”. Display will say “Accepted”
3) Press “UP RPM” until the top line reads “CurLimM = “. (Make a note of this original value).
4) Press “CONFIRM” to edit this value. Use the “UP RPM” or “DOWN RPM” buttons to set this value to 100, then press “CONFIRM”.
5) Press “UP RPM” until the top line reads “IrOFFSET = “. (Make a note of this original value).
6) Press “CONFIRM” to edit this value. Use the “UP RPM” or “DOWN RPM” buttons to set this value to 100, then press “CONFIRM”.
7) Press “OFF” to exit Service Mode.
8) Test the bandsaw by resawing a wide board.
9) If the banging noise persists, repeat this procedure and set “IrOFFSET” to a higher value
10) If the banging noise is eliminated, but overspeed is a problem, set “IrOFFSET” to a lower value.
11) There is a compromise between the banging and overspeed. Try to find the smallest value that will eliminate the banging, and the overspeed will not be much of an issue. In my case this value was 130.

Overspeed is not much of an issue because the speed immediately drops to the set point as soon as a load is applied. Perhaps one of the other settings can adjust the overspeed, but I do not know which one, nor am I willing to “experiment”.
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Post by dusty »

[quote="ppengineeratss"]Greetings all]

WOW! This warning has certainly convinced me. Worry not Jim. I will not attempt any reprogramming on my PowerPro nor will I wait three days for a call back.
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wurlitzerwilly
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Post by wurlitzerwilly »

[quote="ppengineeratss"]Greetings all]

Jim.

Seems like a fair warning and I'm not saying I disbelieve you, but how do you justify the fact that the Power Pro has been wrong in the first place for many of us? This suggests lack of quality control or the sale of a product which is not fit for stated purpose!

Why was it that when I called customer service, they could not work out why the set screw on the bandsaw hub comes loose, suggested using Locktite, which clearly doesn't cure the issue and could offer no further advice?

If the parameters are at danger state, why was Mike advised to set them that way by Wes?

Not exactly an engineering problem I know, but due to 'issues' between Shopsmith and Craft Supplies (our UK agent) they will not import Power Pro units to the UK, which means there is no local warranty support for the unit that I had to import for myself, using friends in the USA as shipping agents - at Shopsmith's suggestion. Many of use here have been more than loyal to Shopsmith and suddenly find that we can't easily obtain a major upgrade. I took it one step further and obtained my own unit, but return-to-base warranty would be non-existent as the shipping costs would outweigh the cost of a replacement unit.

So, having phoned for advice and been given none that was useful, I read rumors on forums that folks have phoned Wes and he calls them back at a time to suit him. I appreciate that Shopsmith may not wish to fund the cost of a protracted phone call to the UK, but as I don't pay for my calls to the USA, how can I take advantage of this to call customer service and obtain a fix for my bandsaw problem?

Yes, the cat's out of the bag, but in these days of Internet communication, why didn't Shopsmith see it coming and firstly publish a warning (as you have done) in the Power Pro manual/DVD and better still, publish sensible programming changes that would allow folks to obtain a safe 'fix'?

Also, why has it taken Shopsmith's cover to be blown to obtain a major reaction to Power Pro issues on this forum? The discussion thread on Power Pro/bandsaw issues has been going on for months, but nobody from Shopsmith thought fit to react and offer help - until now.

Sorry to sound heavy, but although it was my choice to import a Power Pro, I really feel upset that Shopsmith have made their customers pay for the privilege of beta testing an expensive upgrade and after a year or so of gathering data, Shopsmith are still selling a product that has major issues.
Regards,

Alan.
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Post by JPG »

My conclusions regarding the parameter tweaking are as follows.

SS hesitantly allowed some folks having difficulty to tweak these two parameters.

I say hesitantly because as Jim Mcann mentioned above, it is not a good thing to do willy-nilly (and without supervision(albiet remote)).

These changes are a deviation from the standard design parameters, and as such are not appropriate for widespread adaptation.

I surmise SS is not satisfied with these isolated deviant units.

I further surmise they have not come up with a complete understanding of the cause of the problems, but I do believe slop in the drive train is a main cause.



Secondary effects are the loosening of set screws caused by braking action of the DVR motor control.


Do keep in mind the leading position being taken by SS to use this motor technology for a multi tasking machine with extremely varying load profiles.

I am amazed the 'issues' are as 'minimal' as evidenced here.


Finally I do hope all internal set screws are currently being adequately tightened at the 'factory'!!!
╔═══╗
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╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
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brad_nalor
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Post by brad_nalor »

JPG40504 wrote:My conclusions regarding the parameter tweaking are as follows.

SS hesitantly allowed some folks having difficulty to tweak these two parameters.

I say hesitantly because as Jim Mcann mentioned above, it is not a good thing to do willy-nilly (and without supervision(albiet remote)).

These changes are a deviation from the standard design parameters, and as such are not appropriate for widespread adaptation.

I surmise SS is not satisfied with these isolated deviant units.

I further surmise they have not come up with a complete understanding of the cause of the problems, but I do believe slop in the drive train is a main cause.



Secondary effects are the loosening of set screws caused by braking action of the DVR motor control.


Do keep in mind the leading position being taken by SS to use this motor technology for a multi tasking machine with extremely varying load profiles.

I am amazed the 'issues' are as 'minimal' as evidenced here.


Finally I do hope all internal set screws are currently being adequately tightened at the 'factory'!!!
Nicely said.

Regardless, the DVR to Shopsmith has got to be the saviour and future for the company and if we really want it, will have to work with them, give them space to make it right. In the big scheme of things, I don't think this company is the type where they once were into selling volume and they have a small staff, so l hope a positive dialouge for all makes it right.
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Post by paulmcohen »

SDSSmith wrote:I have not heard from the tech gurus at SS yet and do not have the values yet, but here is a rough shot of my PP software version at startup:
Your picture confirms that there are at least two versions of firmware. I assume they are not field upgradable.
Paul Cohen
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A 1982 500 Shopsmith brand upgraded to a Mark 7 PowerPro, Jointer, Bandsaw (with Kreg fence), Strip Sander, Ring Master and lots of accessories all purchased new
12" Sliding Compound Mitre Saw, 1200 CFM DC
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dusty
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Post by dusty »

brad_nalor wrote:Nicely said.

Regardless, the DVR to Shopsmith has got to be the saviour and future for the company and if we really want it, will have to work with them, give them space to make it right. In the big scheme of things, I don't think this company is the type where they once were into selling volume and they have a small staff, so l hope a positive dialouge for all makes it right.
You are absolutely right. Since we all do want Shopsmith to survive the long haul, we do need to support them whenever we can and however we can. HOWEVER, Shopsmith needs their customer base just as badly as we need them. THIS IS A TWO WAY AFFAIR.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
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