510 early/late rail tube/jack screw differences

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keakap
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Post by keakap »

JPG40504 wrote:OK Guys, help me unnerstan!

The 520- upgrade kits for 510 early/late have different rails, the difference being the center mounting screw(?) location.

As for drilling, do the threads not need to be reamed out on an dearly 510?(hence the need of a drill bit to do so)

I have thought the early 510 also required drilling the center hole at the different location.

The slop that allows 'setting' the 520 rail height is in the mounting holes in the rail.
1. Sorta.
2. Sorta.
3. Sorta.
4. Depends. With the right combination there is no slop and thus no drilling, and the new rail height is perfect.
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Post by JPG »

keakap wrote:1. Sorta.
2. Sorta.
3. Sorta.
4. Depends. With the right combination there is no slop and thus no drilling, and the new rail height is perfect.
That ain'yt helping!:rolleyes:

Especially the 'depends'. The rails are supposed to be height adjustable(hence they send you a gauge).

Any chance for elaboration?:)
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dusty
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Post by dusty »

Do you really consider the slop that exists when you mount the rails to the table as an "adjust-ability feature"?

I don't.

The gauge, in my opinion does nothing more that give you a method of making the relationship between the rails and table tops a consistent offset.
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Post by JPG »

dusty wrote:Do you really consider the slop that exists when you mount the rails to the table as an "adjust-ability feature"?

I don't.

The gauge, in my opinion does nothing more that give you a method of making the relationship between the rails and table tops a consistent offset.

Sorry if 'slop' has a negative connotation.

If no slop, there is no possible movement to allow 'adjusting'.

Call it 'clearance' if you must! Same thing.;)

I was asking the question because if the original (early) 510 holes were tapped, the rails(tubes) were not 'adjustable'. The early 510 screws are flat headed(tapered head) so the screws and holes determine rail positioning with no means of adjusting.

Depending upon the size drill bit used to drill out the threads when updating to 520 and the mounting holes in the 520 rails, the limits of 'adjustment' are defined. I am curious if that is supplied by the rail mounting holes, the table holes, or more likely, both.

I guess a simpler question could be, are the rail mounting holes slots?

I also was attempting to determine if the 520 upgrade for early 510's have the middle hole located differently from later 510s and current 520s.

I have assumed the middle hole need be 'moved' to attach the 520 upgrade rails.

Considering Keakap's 'maybe' response I am not so sure of that. FWIW he likely has more 'experience' with these details than any one else on this forum.(a sad tale onto itself!)

All this does not matter unless one is contemplating a 520 upgrade via E-Bay and already has some stuff of both versions already. I also need to decide if I do not upgrade to 520 stuff, which of the two versions I will 'settle' on. Tis the absence of having two versions of the 510 main table that creates the 'ignorance' on my part.
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E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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Post by keakap »

[quote="JPG40504"]Sorry if 'slop' has a negative connotation.

If no slop, there is no possible movement to allow 'adjusting'.

Call it 'clearance' if you must! Same thing.]

Okay. Put considerable thot into this, and the light popped on this morning- I think I remember the salient details.
First, "sorta, sorta, sorta" is the best there is for that part. There is no hard and fast rule due to too many variables.
As for the old rails and holes and such, there are variations upon variations there too. Hint: I was not sent a drill bit iirc (or if I was it was not needed).
Let me interject here a disclaimer: I do not intend to offend, so there IS NO offense. Period.
When I ordered the parts for the upgrade to 520, and I believe it was done o'er the phone and I was speaking to a SS Lady, the situation here was 'made clear' and the actual specifications of the parts were left to the SS Lady.
Best move I could have made.
I got not one kit, not two kits, but a selection of items from both kits, and then some.
Here's a little detail that stymied my memory for awhile- I'd forgotten, sorta, that an early step in the evolution of my badly broken 510 was the exchange of the MAIN table. So, check this out, I then had a 510 with old rails BUT a table, MAIN only, that had the rail TAPPED holes drilled out. Here come de alignment gauges. But weight! The rails went on IN alignment!. Turns out the rail mount holes, formerly tapped for a "screw", were reamed "perfectly" to the diameter of the (stud) "bolt", and there was no 'slop' involved on simply mounting the new rails to the Main, and then the auxiliary tables.
I could not have adjusted the rails if there was a need.
(I have this nagging feeling something is being forgotten.)
Anaway, perhaps because my brain at that point was operating in "Safe" mode and not allowing further input, recollection of the installation of rails on the Aux tables is hazy, but I think that if I were to go down and check right now I would find that they are attached by "screws" and not "bolts" as is (more) normally the case with "new" style rails & tables.
(The old rails went from "screws" into a tapped hole, to stud "bolts" into a reamed hole, and the new 520 rails are mounted with bolts and nuts into the Main table, and screws into the Aux tables. No drilling involved.

[Nota Benny: later realized misalignment of the Aux tables was determined to NOT be a function of the rail hole alignment (via the new gauges or not). Turns out the Aux tables were worse than the old Main. NOT square, NOT flat, NOT symmetrical, Not possible to be properly aligned due to the inconsistent aprons and especially the "bushes" which are the rail-table interface. They were of varying thickness and angles to plumb. Bottom line is I had to replace ALL my tables. Good news is that one of the original interconnect tubes from the 500 to 510 conversion was actually straight and true! Only question is: who's Benny?]

Note II: There was also the matter of the two "old" style rails. Remember that? Some people still don't believe it, but you, Red, have the proof. The walls of the old-er 510 rail tubes was a different thickness than the new-er 510 rail tubes, which made my Main (new-er) table rails absolutely impossible to align to the Aux (old-er) table rails by connector tubes, meaning, aot, that the rip fence could NOT align parallel to the blade when mounted on an Aux table (without Major excessive force).

Ahh, so, those were the good old days...

:-(

That's most of it. Hope I got it right.
Mark V 520, Power-Pro!; Speed Reducer; B/S; Jointer; ShopMate DCS; SS Tenon Master; Rip-Strate; Incra; BCTW; DW734; var. SS sanding systems; Wood River;
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JPG
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Post by JPG »

keakap wrote:Okay. Put considerable thot into this, and the light popped on this morning- I think I remember the salient details.
First, "sorta, sorta, sorta" is the best there is for that part. There is no hard and fast rule due to too many variables.
As for the old rails and holes and such, there are variations upon variations there too. Hint: I was not sent a drill bit iirc (or if I was it was not needed).
Let me interject here a disclaimer: I do not intend to offend, so there IS NO offense. Period.
When I ordered the parts for the upgrade to 520, and I believe it was done o'er the phone and I was speaking to a SS Lady, the situation here was 'made clear' and the actual specifications of the parts were left to the SS Lady.
Best move I could have made.
I got not one kit, not two kits, but a selection of items from both kits, and then some.
Here's a little detail that stymied my memory for awhile- I'd forgotten, sorta, that an early step in the evolution of my badly broken 510 was the exchange of the MAIN table. So, check this out, I then had a 510 with old rails BUT a table, MAIN only, that had the rail TAPPED holes drilled out. Here come de alignment gauges. But weight! The rails went on IN alignment!. Turns out the rail mount holes, formerly tapped for a "screw", were reamed "perfectly" to the diameter of the (stud) "bolt", and there was no 'slop' involved on simply mounting the new rails to the Main, and then the auxiliary tables.
I could not have adjusted the rails if there was a need.
(I have this nagging feeling something is being forgotten.)
Anaway, perhaps because my brain at that point was operating in "Safe" mode and not allowing further input, recollection of the installation of rails on the Aux tables is hazy, but I think that if I were to go down and check right now I would find that they are attached by "screws" and not "bolts" as is (more) normally the case with "new" style rails & tables.
(The old rails went from "screws" into a tapped hole, to stud "bolts" into a reamed hole, and the new 520 rails are mounted with bolts and nuts into the Main table, and screws into the Aux tables. No drilling involved.

That's most of it. Hope I got it right.

Whooo-boy! We may never know what was 'standard'.

FWIW the newer 510 rail tubes have studs hence the need to drill out the threads.

A bolt is a screw with no precision surface on the head or no tool attachment surface. Correct, but not common practice. [No offense!!!]

A stud is a headless screw{no sexist meaning intended}[pun intended](statement accurate). . . . . . . . . Coulda said 'rod'.:rolleyes:

The early 510 used tapped holes and screws.

The later 510 used studs and smooth bore holes and washers and kepnuts.

You had a mish mosh and had a later main table(with smooth bore holes), but aux(extension and floating) tables with tapped holes.

Upon getting the 520 upgrade 'super kit', from your post as I unnerstan it:

Yer 520 rails mounted to the 'later' 510 table with screws, spacers, washers, and kepnuts(just like a 'normal' conversion from late 510 to 520).

Yer aux tables still have the tapped holes and the rails are attached with spacers and screws.

Since the older 510 table was not in de mish mosh mix, the center hole already had the 'new' location.

So I'se still confused how the height gauge is used with no slop!

That nagging feeling is likely caused by yer not including the following!

The studs slid in with no need to gauge(ya did not have the 520 gauge then!;)).

I assume yer 520 gauge indicates perfect height. If the holes are as 'non-sloppy' as you infer, as I just said, how in tarnation can an adjustment be made????:confused:
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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Post by JPG »

keakap wrote: . . .
[Nota Benny: later realized misalignment of the Aux tables was determined to NOT be a function of the rail hole alignment (via the new gauges or not). Turns out the Aux tables were worse than the old Main. NOT square, NOT flat, NOT symmetrical, Not possible to be properly aligned due to the inconsistent aprons and especially the "bushes" which are the rail-table interface. They were of varying thickness and angles to plumb. Bottom line is I had to replace ALL my tables. Good news is that one of the original interconnect tubes from the 500 to 510 conversion was actually straight and true! Only question is: who's Benny?]

Note II: There was also the matter of the two "old" style rails. Remember that? Some people still don't believe it, but you, Red, have the proof. The walls of the old-er 510 rail tubes was a different thickness than the new-er 510 rail tubes, which made my Main (new-er) table rails absolutely impossible to align to the Aux (old-er) table rails by connector tubes, meaning, aot, that the rip fence could NOT align parallel to the blade when mounted on an Aux table (without Major excessive force).

Ahh, so, those were the good old days...

:-(

That's most of it. Hope I got it right.

Yes Note II is verifiable by me. Mixed opinions on this forum re the effect of that very small id difference. (same od, different wall thickness - new are thinner).

Nota Benny - wadja do with the funky aux tables?


BTW no fair adding on when I be responding to de original!:D
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
keakap
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Post by keakap »

[quote="JPG40504"]...
A bolt is a screw with no precision surface on the head or no tool attachment surface. Correct, but not common practice. [No offense!!!]...

___---___---I used the two terms to differentiate, meaning only that one used a nut (reamed hole) and t'other "screwd" in. ...___---___---

......
Yer aux tables still have the tapped holes and the rails are attached with spacers and screws.
Since the older 510 table was not in de mish mosh mix, the center hole already had the 'new' location.
So I'se still confused how the height gauge is used with no slop!...

___---___---Just so happened that the height gauge was right. When the rails were installed they were the right height, with or without the gauge.___---___---

...That nagging feeling is likely caused by yer not including the following !...

___---___--- turnsout the nagging came from the fact that as I related the historical chronography I had it right. BUT then after the conversion I had to buy new Aux/Ext tables, so all of the above, sts, was moot.___---___---

...The studs slid in with no need to gauge(ya did not have the 520 gauge then!;))....

___---___--- I'm unsure of this. I sense inconsistency. The "new" Main table had "new" old rails installed on it, I believe, else how could I have installed my old old rails (sans studs)? And if we're talking 520 rails, well they are all installed with bolts and nuts- no studs. Unless I installed the old old rails with --- oh0oh, I sense the brain going into "Safe" mode again, better get out of this while I still can...---

...I assume yer 520 gauge indicates perfect height. If the holes are as 'non-sloppy' as you infer, as I just said, how in tarnation can an adjustment be made????:confused...

___---___--- It can't. There is no need for an adjustment.___---___---
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Post by JPG »

Belay the safe mode. Do not fear! I shall jog yer noggin.














You were 'attempting' to use a new table with new 510 rail and old 510 rails on the aux tables. When 'upgrading' to 520 you replaced all the rails etc.




Funky tables????:D


P.S. IIUC SS has yer original old 510 table and rail.
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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Post by keakap »

JPG40504 wrote:Yes Note II is verifiable by me. Mixed opinions on this forum re the effect of that very small id difference. (same od, different wall thickness - new are thinner).

Nota Benny - wadja do with the funky aux tables?


BTW no fair adding on when I be responding to de original!:D
Didn't mean to add on (good point, btw!). Intended only to clarify earlier scant commentary.
Still have the old rotten tables. With the one set of retained rails I use one occasionally as a support-only aid, while the other one holds down the garage floor.

As to the mixed opinions on the rail wall thickness variation, it is a continuing mystery to me how anyone could possibly believe that if you move one rail's outermost surface (tangent to plumb) to a different vertical plane than the one to which you are trying to connect- by virtue of the reference surface being INside the tube and at a different horizontal distance from the table- that you could achieve perfect alignment for porpoises, let's say, of fence parallelism.
I would suggest as an illuminating exercise that a very straight item of 5 foot length be laid on a very straight surface, then a shim of the critical dimension- 1/64" in this case- be placed under the item near one end and the item held fast to the base surface so its only two points of contact are the end and the shim. Then measure the height of the other end off the surface. That, then, would be the amount to overcome by force-stress with the fence placed a large distance from the blade. This canNOT be a formula for success!
And then there's the everyday PITA caused by having to wrestle with the connector tubes (Aux tables) every time they are used.

(I just exercised the exercise, using 5' and 1/64", with the shim's contact edge at 7" from the end. Error = 130 thousandths or >1/8". That's Big!
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