christmas presents...FOR ME!

reible · Post by **reible** » Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:54 pm

Just started watching the video and BANG he got it wrong. The slot is used to drive and to remove the insert. You need the tooling to do so but it is made to work that way.

While we are getting off subject here I just wanted you to know about this.

Second thing is shopsmith has used a different type insert in the past and this kit will more then likely use those inserts. The inserts are put in with an allen wrench. If you have a shopsmith router table take a look for your self.

I might have more when I watch more but it would be well to move this discussion to its own thread.

Ed

[quote="dusty"]You would not have used a screw driver in that slot for very long. It just does not work. Now we know why. It is not a screw driver slot.

I have good success with these when being inserted into real wood]

benush26 · Post by **benush26** » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:11 pm

[quote="dusty"]You would not have used a screw driver in that slot for very long. It just does not work. Now we know why. It is not a screw driver slot.

I have good success with these when being inserted into real wood]

The latest threaded inserts I bought use a hex drive (EZ-Lok) so I just insert the short end of the allen wrench to get the torque to install. Not ever used the drill press or driver to install but seems like a good idea. Predrilled hole seems to keep then on track.

I have a couple lengths and threads of insert so I use one that is as close to the thickness of the material as I can. I use one for MDF that almost looks like a series of propellers. I add a dab of epoxy when I insert it. None have ever pulled out

[ATTACH]23500[/ATTACH]

That tools to insert the ones that can use a screw driver is this

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Drive-Threa ... ed+inserts

[ATTACH]23501[/ATTACH]
I used a flat blade screw driver with no problems but when I ran out of those inserts I switched to the hex drive ones. I "can" see a good reason to use the nice brass ones if you have blades that might nick the insert.

Be well,
Ben

drl · Post by **drl** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:38 am

I agree with Ed about the slots are for installing/removing the inserts. I have used the hex wrench style inserts and as I recall there was no "slot" in the other end to aid in cutting the threads. Thanks for the post on the drive tool for the slotted inserts.
Regards,
Dwight

Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:24 am

reible wrote:
... I personally own several jigs and many other tools which can perform the task (like the incra jigs). I lost my interest in making them and do not use them for anything I make. Back in the 70's it was more of a skill thing and doing them by hand seems like a special thing to do. Now with all the advances in jigs and routers they don't interest me in the least. Just my opinion but I'd go for a multipurpose method that does more then just dovetails ...

Ed

I totally agree dovetails hold little or no interest for me. I only use large ones where their resistance to pulling apart is needed and then only rarely.

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:32 am

drl wrote:I agree with Ed about the slots are for installing/removing the inserts. I have used the hex wrench style inserts and as I recall there was no "slot" in the other end to aid in cutting the threads. Thanks for the post on the drive tool for the slotted inserts.
Regards,
Dwight

I disagree with both of you but maybe this is one of those issues where none of us have all the facts.

This ad from Stanley, while not terribly informative, does refer to the slot as a cutting edge.

Check those threaded inserts with a flange. I'd like to watch you drive those in with a screw driver.

Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:51 am

benush26 wrote:The latest threaded inserts I bought use a hex drive (EZ-Lok) so I just insert the short end of the allen wrench to get the torque to install. Not ever used the drill press or driver to install but seems like a good idea. Predrilled hole seems to keep then on track.

I have a couple lengths and threads of insert so I use one that is as close to the thickness of the material as I can. I use one for MDF that almost looks like a series of propellers. I add a dab of epoxy when I insert it. None have ever pulled out

[ATTACH]23500[/ATTACH]

That tools to insert the ones that can use a screw driver is this

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Drive-Threa ... ed+inserts

[ATTACH]23501[/ATTACH]
I used a flat blade screw driver with no problems but when I ran out of those inserts I switched to the hex drive ones. I "can" see a good reason to use the nice brass ones if you have blades that might nick the insert.

Be well,
Ben

I think the installation tool was a case of see a need meet the need and was done by someone that didn't know the slot was there to aid in thread cutting.

If you look at the insert the first assumption would be the slot is for a screw driver.

This is a case where the knowledge of the masters was not passed down to the apprentice and got lost.

I think the hex head insert was another case of see a need and invent something that might sell. It seems like a good idea but doesn't solve the real problem of inserting these things perfectly in the hole. A drill press does this job rather nicely.

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:20 pm

My perception.

There are two types illustrated within this thread.

The first referencing the video makes sense. Learned something there!!!! A screwdriver may work(sorta), but will chew up the threads as it sinks down into the wood. If that tool is properly sized to match the barrel diameter at the root of the thread, it will work better.

However the use of the slot as a threading and chip clearance makes much more sense and a smooth exposed end looks better and inserting screws would be easier. The use of a drill press helps insure proper alignment and I like the home brew insertion 'tool'.

Gotta disagree with Ed this time although early yesterday I would have agreed!

Now the hex socketed inserts do not need a slot. The thread design is different. The thread is not continuous, but has reliefs cast that allow for chip displacement. How effective that is I do not know as the chips are not actually provided an exit path.

I think they would also profit from a drill press insertion(better alignment).

IMHO barrel(????) type thingeys like a saw tote retaining screw set 'nut' are better, although not 'blind'.

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:22 pm

Then there is this one which I believe you do not screw in at all. If I am using this one correctly, you have to drill a counterbore first and then a through hole that fits. Once that is done, the insert is simply pressed into hole that was drilled.

I have not seen instructions for doing this but I have several dozen of these inserts and had to find a way to use them. This is what I came up with.

[ATTACH]23511[/ATTACH]

reible · Post by **reible** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:58 pm

While we are still off subject.....

Since I have specified these for use in my old job there is NO doubt in my mind how the manufacture designed these to be used.

So how about if I reference the grainger catalog?

http://www.grainger.com/content/catalog ... tPage=3288

Another place

http://www.zorotools.com/g/00096144/k-G ... MgodlmoASQ

Mmmmm seems like who is telling us what?

I stick by what I have posted.

Ed

benush26 · Post by **benush26** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:04 pm

dusty wrote:I disagree with both of you but maybe this is one of those issues where none of us have all the facts.

This ad from Stanley, while not terribly informative, does refer to the slot as a cutting edge.

Check those threaded inserts with a flange. I'd like to watch you drive those in with a screw driver.

Interesting! The ad does clearly state that the slots provide "cutting action". I do get confused when it calls for using a "tapping head" or wrench to install?

. I do understand what a tapping wrench is for (used them building race engines), but it was to hold a bit that tapped the hole and frankly even after looking it up on the internet I still have no clue about a tapping head unless it is a more robust version to hold the tap.

Since the page refers to inserts being installed into plastic, I "presume" the plastic would need to have threads tapped to prevent fracturing and cracking.
While writing this I wondered if it would be wise to tap threads in the wood before installing the insert, but wondered it after repeated removal of a bolt, whether the insert might work its way loose? I always add a dab of epoxy, but then that's just me!?:rolleyes:

Interesting mental exercise, however for me I have many of the "propeller" style inserts and none of the nice brass ones left. I'll be interested to read about the collective wisdom and the mysterious slots.

Be well,
Ben

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