Truing, As Best You Can, Shopsmith Table Tops

[dusty]

I have figured out what you are attempting to communicate but --- it is a real good thing that I was not your engineering tech. The boss would not have been happy with how long design projects spent on the drawing board before they were proto typed.

The important thing however, do the extension tables line up like they should?

Mine do not but I am still convinced that it is because I do not have the Main Table at absolute zero tilt. All of my physical measurements that are made with reference to the plane of the Way Tubes are well within "woodworking tolerance".

This exercise has convinced me that I want (not need but want) a double tilt configuration in my shop. I just don't know why Johns' setup doesn't align better. It seems to me that since he is building on a flat and firm foundation that he should be dead-on.

Sorry, John. Did not mean to be talking about you when it should be to you.

[keakap]

Flat or not flat, or how flat or not? Seems it may be a simple matter of 'tolerance'. No, not 6 thou or 11, or thou per foot or whatever, but how tempting is it to reach for the 8 pound Persuader when checking table alignments. The best I got mine was about where Dusty has his Main- high point near the center- and instead of reaching for a stick of dynamite I had some fun with my 36" Veritas straightedge, balancing it on that one high point and taking videos of it spinning on the invisible spot. (I bet JPG remembers that one!)

And over time I've developed a strategy for dealing with any hints of doubts or qualms (yess lads, it was the summer of '86 and we was in irons a few miles outta Puerto Escondido in the Qualms of Flatness...") when checking a new setup-- I repeat over and over to myself "it's flat. Don't go near that straightedge, it's flat, demit. Besides, Dusty says the Starrett is be...-- no! It's flat, flat, flat."

Oh, and one more word of caution- as Dusty no doubt can confirm, if you DO replace your main for a flatter one, it could be better in one respect and worse in a dozen others.

[dusty]

I have four tables to chose from and none of them are "flat". Fortunately, one is much better than the others. Unfortunately, none of them fail to meet the criteria that Shopsmith has set for "flat".

No. I do not know what that criteria is. I took measurements from each of my tables and communicated them to Shopsmith. I was then informed that none of my tables were out-of-spec BUT if I wanted to send a table or two back to them they would see if the tables could be improved. I opted to decline that offer.

I did not want to be the only Shopsmith user with a perfectly flat table.

[JPG]

I have figured out what you are attempting to communicate but --- it is a real good thing that I was not your engineering tech. The boss would not have been happy with how long design projects spent on the drawing board before they were proto typed.

The important thing however, do the extension tables line up like they should?
. . .

Three(3)minutes on the 'drawing board' is TOO long????


Using the laser revealed that neither of my spt mount bores are perpendicular to the way tubes(< 1 degree error on a half century old Goldie) and my result is similar to John's. Front to rear is ok, but moving an aux table creates a tilt across the table(inside to outside caused by the end castings being leaning in opposite direction.

A matter of consternation only due to pursuit of perfection and interchangability. Good enough for wood working in general.

[dusty]

So is it this parameter that we are talking about or at 90° to this. If the two extension table legs are not parallel to one another, I don't see how they could be moved up and down but that goes for what is shown here also.

[JPG]

90 degrees from that. The spt support tubes are not vertical when the way tubes are horizontal. If the two ends were off the same amount and direction it would not matter. There is no problem with the two table tubes not being parallel.

When the aux table is adjusted to be horizontal at the right end, it is not at the left end. That is what Jsburger encountered.

Very small fractional angle causing less than 1/16" left/right slope of the aux table.

[dusty]

90 degrees from that. The spt support tubes are not vertical when the way tubes are horizontal. If the two ends were off the same amount and direction it would not matter. There is no problem with the two table tubes not being parallel.

When the aux table is adjusted to be horizontal at the right end, it is not at the left end. That is what Jsburger encountered.

Very small fractional angle causing less than 1/16" left/right slope of the aux table.

We were chasing more than 1/16" in the beginning so some good has come out of this. Furthermore, I think a 1/16" misfit could be created when attaching the Way Tubes and or Bench Tubes to the end castings.

I think the angle would be about .3°.

PS: I now know that I can induce a .3° error in the angularity of the extension table tubes with respect to the Way Tubes. I just came from the shop after having done so. No pictures. Camera battery dead.

The higher the extension table table is raised, the easier it is to achieve!

You guys don't really have a problem, you have a perceived need to achieve with the Shopsmith more than it was designed to deliver. In fact, I have my doubts that even my dream table saw (Delta Unisaw) would perform any better under this sort of scrutiny. Wish I had one in the shop to play with.

[jsburger]

90 degrees from that. The spt support tubes are not vertical when the way tubes are horizontal. If the two ends were off the same amount and direction it would not matter. There is no problem with the two table tubes not being parallel.

When the aux table is adjusted to be horizontal at the right end, it is not at the left end. That is what Jsburger encountered.

Very small fractional angle causing less than 1/16" left/right slope of the aux table.

That is exactly the problem here. The aux table support tube holes in the right end casting are not normal (perpendicular) to the way tubes. The left end is fine. Also remember this is the double tilt end castings.

If they were both off the same amount in the same direction there would be no problem.

So I have two extension tables marked left and right, problem solved. BTW, I bought the second aux table when the machine was single tilt for the same reason. As you confirmed your goldie has the same problem so my guess is that many many machines have this problem. If someone has a machine that does not have the problem consider yourself lucky.

[dusty]

90 degrees from that. The spt support tubes are not vertical when the way tubes are horizontal. If the two ends were off the same amount and direction it would not matter. There is no problem with the two table tubes not being parallel.

When the aux table is adjusted to be horizontal at the right end, it is not at the left end. That is what Jsburger encountered.

Very small fractional angle causing less than 1/16" left/right slope of the aux table.

That is exactly the problem here. The aux table support tube holes in the right end casting are not normal (perpendicular) to the way tubes. The left end is fine. Also remember this is the double tilt end castings.

If they were both off the same amount in the same direction there would be no problem.

So I have two extension tables marked left and right, problem solved. BTW, I bought the second aux table when the machine was single tilt for the same reason. As you confirmed your goldie has the same problem so my guess is that many many machines have this problem. If someone has a machine that does not have the problem consider yourself lucky.

Since this is a double tilt casting, is there a reason why you have not asked for warranty coverage (or maybe you have)?

Just for confirmation: we are talking about the new part # 522837 which pivots on a 1/2" pin. Its' position with respect to the Way Tubes is established by inserting the Way Tubes into a bore and securing them there with a set screw. Do the Way Tubes bottom out in those bores?




Hmmm, Have you taken an angle measurement between the Way Tubes and the inside face of 522837?

[jsburger]

90 degrees from that. The spt support tubes are not vertical when the way tubes are horizontal. If the two ends were off the same amount and direction it would not matter. There is no problem with the two table tubes not being parallel.

When the aux table is adjusted to be horizontal at the right end, it is not at the left end. That is what Jsburger encountered.

Very small fractional angle causing less than 1/16" left/right slope of the aux table.

That is exactly the problem here. The aux table support tube holes in the right end casting are not normal (perpendicular) to the way tubes. The left end is fine. Also remember this is the double tilt end castings.

If they were both off the same amount in the same direction there would be no problem.

So I have two extension tables marked left and right, problem solved. BTW, I bought the second aux table when the machine was single tilt for the same reason. As you confirmed your goldie has the same problem so my guess is that many many machines have this problem. If someone has a machine that does not have the problem consider yourself lucky.

Since this is a double tilt casting, is there a reason why you have not asked for warranty coverage (or maybe you have)?

Just for confirmation: we are talking about the new part # 522837 which pivots on a 1/2" pin. Its' position with respect to the Way Tubes is established by inserting the Way Tubes into a bore and securing them there with a set screw. Do the Way Tubes bottom out in those bores?




Hmmm, Have you taken an angle measurement between the Way Tubes and the inside face of 522837?

No I have not asked for a warranty replacement. Since I have two end tables it is not really an issue. However, I will call just to see what they say. Since this seems to be a common problem double tilt or not methinks the replacement may not be any better.

I assume 522837 is the correct part number. The only bench diagram I can find on the web site is the MK V. The page where the service parts links are only has a link to the MK V base/bench. The left casting bottoms out since I recently had it off. My guess is that the right casting does also since if it was not in the correct position it would not drop down over the pivot pin.

No I have not taken an angle measurement between the Way Tubes and the inside face of 522837. I am not sure why I would even want to do that. The reference surfaces in question are the way tube bores and the table support tube bores. They are not normal to each other in this case. And yes the way tubes are a very close fit in the castings.