Why Isn't It Square

beeg · Post by **beeg** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:11 am

OH WOW, it all looks GREAT. How long did it take you to finish each piece?

I agree mostly with you on your 7:22am post. I'm more interested in learning how to use what I have, right now.

a1gutterman · Post by **a1gutterman** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:16 am

jg300da wrote:...Even Norm who is nothing more than a fine finish carpenter abandoned his (SS) very early on...

Hi jg300da,
It is more that SS did knot "sponser" his show the way the other equipment makers did. Norm must use the tools that his sponsers want him too. As far as the abilities of the Mark V go, I am on the side that believes that the machine is fully capable of producing fine furniture, it depends on the abilities of the operator, to 1) set up his/her equipment properly, 2) maintain his/her equipment properly, and 3) learn to use his/her equipment properly.

jg300da · Post by **jg300da** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:38 am

Tim, that may be true BUT, what would the average home woodworker rather see, Norm patiently and skillfully handplaning a drawerfront perfectly flat or watch him simply running it through Delta's latest super deluxe planer? or that ridiculous $4000.00 36" sander? You can bet it's the latter.

There is no sense of accomplishment in completing a project made possible only by the sheer number of dollars spent on tools designed to remove the human elements of skill or knowledge. IMHO.

Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:00 pm

jg300da wrote:Tim, that may be true BUT, what would the average home woodworker rather see, Norm patiently and skillfully handplaning a drawerfront perfectly flat or watch him simply running it through Delta's latest super deluxe planer? or that ridiculous $4000.00 36" sander? You can bet it's the latter.

There is no sense of accomplishment in completing a project made possible only by the sheer number of dollars spent on tools designed to remove the human elements of skill or knowledge. IMHO.

Jg300da
For you there is no sense of accomplishment in completing a project made possible only by the sheer number of dollars spent on tools designed to remove the human elements of skill or knowledge.

But for many others there is. That is why they make money so they can buy those tools and they get two senses of accomplishment. Once when they buy the tool and again when they use it to make something that works for them.

Your trying to define craftsmanship by definitions you feel satisfied with. However not everyone is in agreement with your definitions.

Go to a modern furniture manufacture. They think the craftsman is the designer that can design a piece of furniture that can be made by machine. They also think the craftsman is the man that can fix the machine that makes the furniture. They also think the craftsman is the person that can place the piece in the machine exactly at the same place, at exactly the same position each and every time.

I admire Norm's craftsmanship. To me he crafted a job that I would love to have and makes a darn good living from it. To me he is a real craftsman.

jg300da · Post by **jg300da** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:24 pm

Ed in Tampa wrote:Jg300da
For you there is no sense of accomplishment in completing a project made possible only by the sheer number of dollars spent on tools designed to remove the human elements of skill or knowledge.

"That is why I ended with IMHO"

Ed in Tampa wrote: They also think the craftsman is the person that can place the piece in the machine exactly at the same place, at exactly the same position each and every time.

"And some would consider it an accomplishment just being able to punch their time card in the machine each morning. I hope that doesn't qualify as an accomplishment to you."

Ed in Tampa wrote: I admire Norm's craftsmanship. To me he crafted a job that I would love to have and makes a darn good living from it. To me he is a real craftsman.

"I see no connection whatsoever with possessing a true skill and level of expertise and getting paid money. What about self worth? or pride in reaching a level that few others have? What does that have to do with money?"

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:15 pm

You are not alone in your admiration for the " finish carpenter" who made it big on a DIY tv program. He an Bob Vila are not doing bad for themselves; especially if you don't give them credit for being skilled craftsmen.

jg300da · Post by **jg300da** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:30 pm

Using that same criteria, folks like Jerry Springer and those other reality show morons are skilled in their craft as well? What does money have to do with personal pride and achievment?
Besides, when you're done admiring Norm you're still left with drawers that aren't square. Only your desire to learn and improve can help you with that.
Good luck with the project...

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:56 pm

jg300da wrote:Using that same criteria, folks like Jerry Spinger and those other reality show morons are skilled in their craft as well? What does money have to do with personal pride and achievment?
Besides, when you're done admiring Norm you're still left with drawers that aren't square. Only your desire to learn and improve can help you with that.
Good luck with the project...

I'm not sure how Jerry Springer got into this conversation but be assured that his mug shows on my TV for only long enough for me to change channels.

I do admire Norm for his accomplishments even if he uses a brad nailer. Incidently, that is a tool with which one can fail. I have a hell of a time putting in brads without having them shoot out the side.

I do have drawers that are not perfectly square and I can do nothing about that because they have been fully assembled and the glue has had time to set. They are not perfect meaning they will never meet the unbiased criteria of "heirloom". However, I suspect the grand daughter will be very happy.

Hopefully, the next set of drawers (or what ever the next project is) will be a little bit more professional. But, it will have been built using a lot of Shopsmith equipment

judaspre1982 · Post by **judaspre1982** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:30 pm

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Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:20 pm

jg300da wrote:Using that same criteria, folks like Jerry Springer and those other reality show morons are skilled in their craft as well? What does money have to do with personal pride and achievment?
Besides, when you're done admiring Norm you're still left with drawers that aren't square. Only your desire to learn and improve can help you with that.
Good luck with the project...

Jg300da
I'm not trying to be argumentative here but you simply fail to understand not everyone views craftsmanship the same way you do.

Money doesn't have a lot to do with personal pride and achievment unless you set out to make money, then having it would say you accomplished your goal and you would have something to take pride in.

Using or not using a nail gun does not determine a craftsman it might define a puritist but not a craftsman. To the craftsmen in Williamsburg using an electric powered anything is an abomination.

So I think what your talking about when putting down Shopsmith is not craftsmanship but rather your personal prejudices on how something is to be built and what is to be used to build it. And that is okay but understand putting down Shopsmiths on a Shopsmith forum is like walking into an NFL lockeroom and saying the ladies that play ladies volleyball are tougher.
Your comments might be met with some disagreement.

Ed