rust on way tubes and other parts

[Phil72]

I'm restoring a mark v 500 I got off craigslist and I have a few questions. I first put all of the caster rods and little metal pieces in a vinegar and salt solution and then a baking soda and water solution to remove rust and neutralize it. I then rubbed them with steel wool after drying, wiped them down with mineral spirits, and let them sit. I did this with a few other parts as well, like the piece that holds the bench tubes on from below. Of course, everything rerusted. So I repeated the procedure and then put Johnson's paste wax on them to protect them, and that worked pretty well, but there are a few small rust spots.
I removed the rust from the bench and way tubes using naval jelly, as I did not have a container large enough for electrolysis. I then put some WD-40 on these to protect them. However, there are still lots of black lines and a few rust spots from where the rust ate into the tubes. So now I have a few questions:

1. How can I take off that last amount of rust from the small metal parts and caster "cross rods" and completely prevent it from coming back.

2. How can I get the tubes fixed up? I was thinking maybe buying expansion plugs and sticking them in my current (working) mark v 500 and doing the tubes that way with sandpaper. Where could I buy these? I have Ace Hardware, Home Depot, and Advance Auto Parts nearby. If I did this, what grit progression would I do? Wet or Dry? And would this affect the thickness enough that things like the tie rod that goes at the end of the way tubes does not fit on well anymore? Or the way tubes slide out of the other end of the machine (the pivot side for drill press mode)?

3. Everything I have derusted looks kind of dull. How can I get it shiny again?

I am on a bit of a budget, being a student working on this at my grandparents' house, but appreciate any input on how to do this and make it look nice again. I have repainted most parts of it already using rustoleum hammered verde green and silver for the portion of the headstock that houses everything, and that looks great so far.

[JPG]

Penetrol will prevent rust to non-operating parts long term.

Johnson's paste wax for operating parts(replenish often).

Small pits/scratches will not adversely affect way tubes. Penetrol will treat them well.

400 grit will abrade to a decent 'polish'.

They do not need to look like polished chrome.

I would start(briefly) with 220 grit.

Not inexpensive, but Evaporust for small parts to remove rust. Letting it dry will provide temporary rust prevention.

Call em freeze plugs at the auto parts store.

Bench tubes? Different diameter from way tubes. Gonna re paint them?

Store 'indoors'(climate controlled to discourage rust).

Kudos on making the effort!

[BuckeyeDennis]

Welcome to the forum, Phil! It sound's like your machine will be a beauty when you're finished restoring it.

For rust removal on small parts, the consensus here is that nothing beats Evaporust. Available at Advance Auto Parts.

Evaporust also leaves a dull finish. To get the parts bright and shiny, I buff them with Nyalox wheel brushes, available at Ace Hardware. They are basically a more modern and user-friendly version of wire wheel brushes, consisting of nylon bristles that have aluminum oxide grit embedded in them. Hence the name, NyAlOx. They come in three different grits/colors. I use the fine one for final polishing, and the coarser ones if I need to remove more material. I generally chuck them up in my Shopsmith, but they can also be used in a hand drill.

Tubes can be also be derusted by pouring Evaporust into a capped piece of PVC pipe, submerging the tube. Or if they aren't rusted too badly, go straight to turning/sanding them using a freeze-plug drive. The plugs should be available at Ace. As for grit, I'd probably start with 320 as a test, go coarser if I need faster material removal, and then work back up through the grits until I got the finish I wanted. I haven't restored any tubes myelf, but to avoid rust dust I'd probably try using wet-or-dry paper with mineral spirits for a lubricant. Plenty of the guys here have actually turned tubes, and may have better advice.

As for re-rusting problems, several of us have had great results with Penetrol, available at Ace or HD. See this post for the process. Afterward, a topcoat of Johnson's Paste Wax helps seal and protect, and also lubricates sliding surfaces.

Finally, should you need any more inspiration for your restoration, check out the Gallery of Restorations.

[oldiron]

If you will be soaking the tubes in PVC pipe, you can also use apple cider vinegar. Make sure the tubes are completely submerged otherwise, the areas which are not submerged will rapidly rust.

It's a little stinky however, apple cider vinegar works really nice!

Mike

[Phil72]

Is this the penetrol?: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Flood-Penetr ... /100130893

Since I've already removed most of the rust, I think that additional rust removal soakings will not be necessary (I will probably try some of these out if I need to do any sort of rust removal on one of the Shopsmiths again (probably sometime soon ), but I will definitely try sanding the small remaining amounts of rust off. Would this diameter change affect the tubes or caster rods at all? I was also thinking of doing the tube procedure with the caster rods just to get the very small amount of remaining rust off them.<- These I could also put in the drill in horizontal mode as well.
I was not going to repaint them, as they were not painted before, and I like the metal look of the tubes. I don't really have a choice for where to store my machine, but my working one has been doing fine in my garage for a while now, so I hope that is good enough.

Here is plan using your input (let me know if this sounds good):
1. Use a freeze plug to mount a tube in the drill chuck in horizontal boring mode (I realized I would not be able to mount the plug on the lathe, having only a live center not a plate so I will try to add a bolt in the plugs). Sand, starting at 220 grit, go up to 400, using mineral spirits to lubricate.
2. I will then keep the tube in the chuck and buff with the wheel brush mounted in a hand drill (this one?: http://www.acehardware.com/product/inde ... d=31821656).
3. Remove the tube. I can now put another one on.
4. Apply penetrol to the cleaned up tube, let it sit for 24-36-ish hours, and wipe down with WD-40.
5. After an hour or so, apply paste wax and let it sit for a little.
6. (Repeat for all tubes)

My biggest questions here are:

1. Can I do this with the caster rods as well?
2. Will the diameter change affect the caster rods or the tubes significantly (tubes slightly, caster rods a little loose...)?
3. Will my proposed procedure work well?
4. Will my proposed procedure take too long as far as tubes sitting out once they are treated? I will, once it is all done and prior to assembly, put another coat of wax on, probably.
5. Is there any way to repaint the little red numbers on the tilt control, miter gauge, and fence, the letters and words on the speed control, or the "waffle" patterned red area on the Shopsmith logo on the front and back of the headstock without very tediously masking all around the little letters?

Thanks to all for your input.

[jsburger]

Most of what you want to do should be fine. As for the way/bench tubes there are a couple of things. The SS 1 1/2" drum sanding mandrel will fit the tubes. If you have one you don't need to buy a freeze plug. Use the drill chuck in horizontal mode. You will have to support the right end of the tube since the tubes extend past the end of the SS you are spinning them on. See the attached pictures. I didn't use the drum sanding mandrel since I have a lathe chuck but the principal is the same. I would start with 320 grit, then 400 grit, then 600 grit and then finish with 0000 steel wool. Clean with mineral spirits and wax with Johnson's. If you use WD-40 or such the wax will not stick.

The castor rods can be chucked directly in the drill chuck. Due to their length and diameter you will probably have to support the right end. I would use a block of wood 1"X1" and drill a shallow hole in the end to fit the castor rod. Then support it in the tail stock with a live center.

As long as you don't get carried away with the 320 grit paper you won't remove enough material to make a difference.

[JPG]

Forget you think what wd-40 is.

It is not a penetrating oil.

It is not a very good lubricating oil.

It can help prevent rusting.

Yes you have found penetrol.

I do not use any thing other than abrasive paper(no mineral spirits').

The bench tubes were initially painted when the Mark 5 was new(silvery gray).

A threaded coupling screwed onto the freeze plug threads will work in the drill chuck.

As long as you are 'polishing' you will not decrease the diameter appreciably. Go to fine grit quickly.

[Phil72]

I will start that soon. I only have three more questions then:

1. Is there any way to repaint the little red numbers on the tilt control, miter gauge, and fence, the letters and words on the speed control, or the "waffle" patterned red area on the Shopsmith logo on the front and back of the headstock without very tediously masking all around the little letters?

2. If the wax will not stick if I use WD-40, how am I supposed to clean off the top layer of penetrol as it was suggested in the linked thread in BuckeyeDennis' response?

3. Would the paint for the tubes alter the color a lot? I'm used to seeing Shopsmiths whose upper and lower tubes are the same color, and I like the way that looks. Is there any benefit other than rust protection to painting? How much advantage against rust does painting vs regular wax give?

[jsburger]

I will start that soon. I only have three more questions then:

1. Is there any way to repaint the little red numbers on the tilt control, miter gauge, and fence, the letters and words on the speed control, or the "waffle" patterned red area on the Shopsmith logo on the front and back of the headstock without very tediously masking all around the little letters?

2. If the wax will not stick if I use WD-40, how am I supposed to clean off the top layer of penetrol as it was suggested in the linked thread in BuckeyeDennis' response?

3. Would the paint for the tubes alter the color a lot? I'm used to seeing Shopsmiths whose upper and lower tubes are the same color, and I like the way that looks. Is there any benefit other than rust protection to painting? How much advantage against rust does painting vs regular wax give?

1. The indented numbers I don't know. Raised numbers with a painted background I have done. I paint the entire item and use detail sanders from Woodpeckers to remove the paint from the top of the letters. It really does not take that long to remove the paint.

2. Don't use Penitrol. In my opinion Jhonson's Paste Wax (JPW) is the only thing necessary and has been recommended and sold with the SS almost since day one. As I said, I use mineral sprites to thoroughly clean the tubes before waxing. I do use a bit of WD-40 with the 320 grit paper if the tubes are badly rusted. After that I clean with mineral sprites and go on to 400 grit +++. Then a final clean with mineral sprites and wax with JPW. I am not sure why JPG says he doesn't use mineral sprites for final cleaning but he will chime in with the answer.

3. Remember, only the early MK 5 bench tubes were painted. Those were the ones that were 1 7/8" as opposed to the 1 3/4" tubes. Don't paint them if you don't want to. Treat them the same as the way tubes. I think paint will alter the color.

[JPG]

JPG would use Mineral spirits for cleaning, but not while abrading.

The Goldies (with 1 3/4" bench tubes) had painted bench tubes also.

Realize the steel in the bench tubes was also different from the way tubes so they have a different appearance when 'polished'.

Indented letters can be filled with paint by entire covering with paint then scraping(peeling) the excess off with a razor blade after it has set slightly. Then careful dabbing/wiping with a barely dampened(with thinner) cloth to clean up the desired unpainted area. Takes a bit of wishful thinking but will be mostly successful. The paint in the indentation will tend to pull out as it is 'peeled'. Careful infill with a toothpick can repair that.

I suggest penetrol to prevent rust while storing and awaiting reassembly and those parts not painted or 'polished'.