I am attempting to put together a micro adjustable rip fence for use on a Mark V table. If I do a good job of this it would also be usable on the Shopsmith router table.
My initial plan was to mount this on an extension table to adjust the rip fence while it was mounted on the main table. I am having some doubts about this approach and I would appreciate any comments that you (as potential users) might like to make.
I have a couple specific questions I hope you will respond to.
1. If you were planning to acquire a micro adjustable device for use on your Shopsmith equipment, what is the minimum range of motion that you would expect.
2. When needing micro adjust ability, does that requirement reach across from an extension/floating table to the main table...or would a device that was integral to the main table only typically be adequate.
3. My initial thought was that micro adjustable requirements are typically limited to small parts. Is this a realistic position? The thought is that a part 6' long does not have to be cut accurate to thousandths of an inch.
MicroAdjustable Rip Fence
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dusty
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MicroAdjustable Rip Fence
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Hi Dusty,
I think if you want to do this yourself you need only look to the Jointech or Incra solutions, if you understand how they do it then you might be able to advance faster with your design.
A couple of things to think about, first, the fence for a table saw needs to be square to the blade, so the whole fence needs to move the same amount, or as a unit if you can better see that. The micro adjustment will require that some part of the fence remain stationary while a part of the fence moves. You will have to reset it each time you move the fence and need the micro adjustment again. It will have to be able to have a center zero point and be able to move in and out from that. What ever you make it has to be very very solid.
For the router portion it doesn't need to be square to anything. If the fence is fixed at one end that the other end is "micro adjusted" that works fine. Again it needs to be very solid and be able to move in both directions.
Keep in mind in most cases you want more then a micro adjust, that is why the Jointech or Incra systems work so well. Most of the time you don't "need" the micro adjust feature but you have it for the few times when you do.
[question 1] If you decide you want to work on this then I would think an adjustment range of a 1/4" would work. You can get the fence to within a lot less then an 1/8" using the scales and go from there.
[question 2] I don't see how you are planning to do this but a micro adjuster would most likely be mounted to the fence and travel with it so this question really has no answer.
[question 3] Like the question above the micro adjuster would most likely be attached to the fence so you would have the same accuracy on a 1" piece as you would a 6" as you would a 24" or 36" or ... part. Keeping in mind that wood movement is relative to amount of wood you have so bigger pieces will be changing more then small pieces after you cut them.
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Soap Box time
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I have no idea if this applies to you Dusty but a lot of people seem to think that because Incra or Jointech have the ability to work to .001" that this is there claim to fame. This is really a very limited feature and the orginal Incra jig I got did not even have this feature. Yes it can be useful but I don't think anyone should buy one of these jigs for that reason. Please take the time to understand how these jigs work, it is much much more then the .001" fine adjust you get.
If you are interested check out the demos at:
http://www.incra.com/video_demos.htm
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Sorry Dusty for stealing a bit of your thread, it just that I know that some people here just don't get these jigs, much like some people don't get the shopsmith or the SandFlea.
I also don't want to crush your nobel efforts to make a micro adjuster which might just be what some people want and need or is that need and want? As always I'd like more details on your plans and ideas as this progresses.
Ed
I think if you want to do this yourself you need only look to the Jointech or Incra solutions, if you understand how they do it then you might be able to advance faster with your design.
A couple of things to think about, first, the fence for a table saw needs to be square to the blade, so the whole fence needs to move the same amount, or as a unit if you can better see that. The micro adjustment will require that some part of the fence remain stationary while a part of the fence moves. You will have to reset it each time you move the fence and need the micro adjustment again. It will have to be able to have a center zero point and be able to move in and out from that. What ever you make it has to be very very solid.
For the router portion it doesn't need to be square to anything. If the fence is fixed at one end that the other end is "micro adjusted" that works fine. Again it needs to be very solid and be able to move in both directions.
Keep in mind in most cases you want more then a micro adjust, that is why the Jointech or Incra systems work so well. Most of the time you don't "need" the micro adjust feature but you have it for the few times when you do.
[question 1] If you decide you want to work on this then I would think an adjustment range of a 1/4" would work. You can get the fence to within a lot less then an 1/8" using the scales and go from there.
[question 2] I don't see how you are planning to do this but a micro adjuster would most likely be mounted to the fence and travel with it so this question really has no answer.
[question 3] Like the question above the micro adjuster would most likely be attached to the fence so you would have the same accuracy on a 1" piece as you would a 6" as you would a 24" or 36" or ... part. Keeping in mind that wood movement is relative to amount of wood you have so bigger pieces will be changing more then small pieces after you cut them.
********************************************************
Soap Box time
********************************************************
I have no idea if this applies to you Dusty but a lot of people seem to think that because Incra or Jointech have the ability to work to .001" that this is there claim to fame. This is really a very limited feature and the orginal Incra jig I got did not even have this feature. Yes it can be useful but I don't think anyone should buy one of these jigs for that reason. Please take the time to understand how these jigs work, it is much much more then the .001" fine adjust you get.
If you are interested check out the demos at:
http://www.incra.com/video_demos.htm
********************************************************
Sorry Dusty for stealing a bit of your thread, it just that I know that some people here just don't get these jigs, much like some people don't get the shopsmith or the SandFlea.
I also don't want to crush your nobel efforts to make a micro adjuster which might just be what some people want and need or is that need and want? As always I'd like more details on your plans and ideas as this progresses.
Ed
{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]
Dusty,
I am inclined to agree with Ed. The Incra 5000 has the micro adjustibility you are looking for. It can be used either for rip or cross cut work as accuarate as we are currently capable of measuring. I also feel you could profit from at least checking them out.
On the other side of the coin if ever there was a fellow capable of inventing a new tool which could run circles around all that exist today you my frined are that man.
Good luck, fjimp
I am inclined to agree with Ed. The Incra 5000 has the micro adjustibility you are looking for. It can be used either for rip or cross cut work as accuarate as we are currently capable of measuring. I also feel you could profit from at least checking them out.
On the other side of the coin if ever there was a fellow capable of inventing a new tool which could run circles around all that exist today you my frined are that man.
Good luck, fjimp
F. Jim Parks
Lakewood, Colorado:)
When the love of power is replaced by the power of love the world will have a chance for survival.
Lakewood, Colorado:)
When the love of power is replaced by the power of love the world will have a chance for survival.
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dusty
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I have no doubt that either Jointech or Incra have fence systems that that do what I describe. I would love to have either and many of their other accessories too. But since that is absolutely out of the question I must do with what I have.
That does not mean I can not work with these to "fine tune" the results.
Ed and Jim, thank you for your responses.
That does not mean I can not work with these to "fine tune" the results.
Ed and Jim, thank you for your responses.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
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james.miller
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Dusty, I saw this on the Rockler site a few days ago and maybe it could be adapted for the Shopsmith http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page ... 20adjuster
The one problem is that when you un-clamp the SS fence there is slop in it, you might get around this by pushing the fence forward or by loosely clamping the front clamp to take up the slop.
Just a thought
The one problem is that when you un-clamp the SS fence there is slop in it, you might get around this by pushing the fence forward or by loosely clamping the front clamp to take up the slop.
Just a thought
Jim in Tucson
Don't really need my thinking cap any more - since Jim's post. That "Fence pusher" from Rockler was what I was trying to remember! I knew I'd seen one somewhere.dusty wrote:....
I have a couple specific questions I hope you will respond to.
1. If you were planning to acquire a micro adjustable device for use on your Shopsmith equipment, what is the minimum range of motion that you would expect.
2. When needing micro adjust ability, does that requirement reach across from an extension/floating table to the main table...or would a device that was integral to the main table only typically be adequate.
3. My initial thought was that micro adjustable requirements are typically limited to small parts. Is this a realistic position? The thought is that a part 6' long does not have to be cut accurate to thousandths of an inch.
1) An inch to a few inches maximum
2) Need to make a firm, locked down device from a controllable surface. Using fence rails seems like the best way. That way, you could change the device from main table to extension table or even to floating tables.
3) I agree with your initial thought, when speaking of length. If using this adjustable device to rip boards wider than 8" or so - Ed reible's remark regarding expansion/contraction is going to take effect on that board anyway. Therefore, when wider boards are put into a project we have to allow for these movements in the project. But if you want accuracy on a wider rip, you can get it with a device like the Rockler one.
However if you want to use the fence to set the length of a longer cross cut, later wood movement would have negligible effect.
Another however! - - The #3 answer, above, was speaking of lumber. When cutting plywood or another dimensionally stable product, you may want your accuracy on larger pieces.
P.S. A set screw should be able to hold the rail rider on the rail.
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
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Ed in Tampa
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Dusty
I have looked at the Incra and Jointech setups and I'm left with one question how is the fence set perfectly parallel to the blade and if the fence is removed and reinstalled how is reset to the previous setting? Nothing I read answered that question.
If you building something I would think your first consideration would be the ease by which you set the fence perfectly parallel to the blade. Then things like micro adjust lenght and etc becomes important.
If you have solve that above problem I would like to understand how.
As far as the adjustment range and etc. I think the old adage the long the better but if the cost is hundreds of turns on a small knob then I think shorter would be better.
Let me ramble for a minute and see if anything I say "rings" with you.
I think the biggest desire would be ease of setup. I would like something you press against the blade thus assureing the fence itself is in perfect parallel relationship with the blade and then locking down the actual indexing mechanism. Then being able to slide that fence back from the blade at least 25" would be great. On that setup I would like to see a micro adjust of about 1/2" = 1"
I have looked at the Incra and Jointech setups and I'm left with one question how is the fence set perfectly parallel to the blade and if the fence is removed and reinstalled how is reset to the previous setting? Nothing I read answered that question.
If you building something I would think your first consideration would be the ease by which you set the fence perfectly parallel to the blade. Then things like micro adjust lenght and etc becomes important.
If you have solve that above problem I would like to understand how.
As far as the adjustment range and etc. I think the old adage the long the better but if the cost is hundreds of turns on a small knob then I think shorter would be better.
Let me ramble for a minute and see if anything I say "rings" with you.
I think the biggest desire would be ease of setup. I would like something you press against the blade thus assureing the fence itself is in perfect parallel relationship with the blade and then locking down the actual indexing mechanism. Then being able to slide that fence back from the blade at least 25" would be great. On that setup I would like to see a micro adjust of about 1/2" = 1"
Ed in Tampa
Stay out of trouble!
Stay out of trouble!
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dusty
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- Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona
Thank you all for your inputs. The fence pusher concept is sort of what I had in mind however, I was thinking along the line of a pusher/puller. Don't know how to make that work unless I attach hard to the fence...thinking t-track.
The Rockler idea is real good....sometimes I wish there was an aluminum magnet.
Range of adjustability....I think 2"-3" maximum. Like reible said, I already have accuracy to 1/64" using the magnetic tape on the front rail (now that I can see it).
After thought: Please don't look through the Rockler catalog unless you want a case of "I want that". The engineers/purchasers for Rockler must all be woodworkers...they seem to know what is needed.
The Rockler idea is real good....sometimes I wish there was an aluminum magnet.
Range of adjustability....I think 2"-3" maximum. Like reible said, I already have accuracy to 1/64" using the magnetic tape on the front rail (now that I can see it).
After thought: Please don't look through the Rockler catalog unless you want a case of "I want that". The engineers/purchasers for Rockler must all be woodworkers...they seem to know what is needed.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Hi again,
Went to the Rockler page and also looked at the "Reviews". Might be an idea or two that would interest you there on how you might want to think about this idea. It also looks like they might be willing to have a go at other ways of doing this, if you've got something and offer it to them who knows maybe a shopsmith version could happen. (Make sure you click to see all 13 or you will miss what I'm talking about.
Ed in Tampa:
Make sure you check out the videos at Incra, live demos, TS-LS table saw fence and I think it might be in part 2 but it wouldn't hurt to view all three. The micro-adjuster I think is in part 3 but again I would think you will want to watch all three parts. If it is still unclear I'll see what I can do to give you more details then you ever wanted to know about how it is done on the Jointech system.
Other thoughts:
The shopsmith fence as a few "issues" which I have posted about before. Depending on how and where push and clamp the fence it can be off several thousands from the "normal" why it sits. I found when I was reaching over the infeed table to lock it in place I wasn't doing the clamping the same way as when I just stood in front of the saw and moved/locked it. This was measured with the dial gauge thing I purchased from shopsmith. I'm sure most people dismissed the post but if we are now back to fine tune the position this is going to come up again when you start testing. This along with having to make sure you have an extension table with tubes in place to stablize the main table... the closer you want to work to thousands of an inch the more minor things come in to play.
Ed
Went to the Rockler page and also looked at the "Reviews". Might be an idea or two that would interest you there on how you might want to think about this idea. It also looks like they might be willing to have a go at other ways of doing this, if you've got something and offer it to them who knows maybe a shopsmith version could happen. (Make sure you click to see all 13 or you will miss what I'm talking about.
Ed in Tampa:
Make sure you check out the videos at Incra, live demos, TS-LS table saw fence and I think it might be in part 2 but it wouldn't hurt to view all three. The micro-adjuster I think is in part 3 but again I would think you will want to watch all three parts. If it is still unclear I'll see what I can do to give you more details then you ever wanted to know about how it is done on the Jointech system.
Other thoughts:
The shopsmith fence as a few "issues" which I have posted about before. Depending on how and where push and clamp the fence it can be off several thousands from the "normal" why it sits. I found when I was reaching over the infeed table to lock it in place I wasn't doing the clamping the same way as when I just stood in front of the saw and moved/locked it. This was measured with the dial gauge thing I purchased from shopsmith. I'm sure most people dismissed the post but if we are now back to fine tune the position this is going to come up again when you start testing. This along with having to make sure you have an extension table with tubes in place to stablize the main table... the closer you want to work to thousands of an inch the more minor things come in to play.
Ed
{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]