Create a review for a woodworking tool that you are familiar with (Shopsmith brand or Non-Shopsmith) or just post your opinion on a specific tool. Head to head comparisons welcome too.
I don't know whether I agree with you guys or NO. If you are saying use a 4mm hex in an abused 5/32" hex to get it out...OKAY.
If you are advocating the routine use of a 4mm hex wrench on 5/32" hex socket just because it fits more snugly...I whole heartedly disaggree. Of course it fits more snugly. It is oversized.
I would also question this routine use because I seriously doubt that you can fully insert the 4mm hex into a 5/32" socket. Yes, it fits (somewhat) but can you bottom out the 4mm wrench into a 5/32" socket...NO.
I just now pulled two new 5/32" set screws from the shop along with a routinely used 5/32" t-handled wrench and a new (hardly ever used) 4mm hex wrench.
My 5/32" hex wrench inserts nearly 1/4" into the sockets of those two set screws and the 4mm hex wrench inserts less than half of that. If anything is going to produce wear-and-tear that incomplete insertion will do it.
The set screws that I replace most often are the two used for the table inserts. They clog with saw dust (which I ignore because of my hast).
I also grind down my hex wrench periodically to rid my self of the wear-and-tear factor.
4mm hex vs 5/32" hex
20201021_084229.jpg (1.35 MiB) Viewed 1480 times
"Making Sawdust Safely" Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
I was fortunate to receive a brand new set of both Imperial and Metric hex wrenches (Klein Tools) earlier this year as a gift. So there is no wear on these yet, i.e. I still use my 5/32" hex wrench (Eklind) that came with my Mark V. I tried this in my shop this morning and I don't have the same results. The screws that hold down the ZCI in the table wouldn't even let a 4.0mm hex wrench be inserted at all, but a new 5/32" wrench (and my old one) worked just fine. I also tried hub setscrews, etc. On those, the 5/32" wrench inserted fully and firmly, but the 4.0mm only went in maybe 1.0mm before meeting significant resistance. Maybe with enough force I could get the 4.0mm to insert more to where it would be able to turn without stripping the head of the screw, but I don't want to damage it. I would have to theorize that if you can get a 4.0mm hex wrench to work in a 5/32" screw then either the screw is very worn (and should be replaced), or your 4.0mm hex wrench is on the smaller side owing to manufacturing variance. As an fyi, I am using straight end hex wrenches. Could it be possible you are using a ball end hex wrench and that is why a 4.0mm wrench fits more easily into a 5/32" screw head?
Before I ordered the Bondhus I tried three other types/brands. I own one or two ball allen types, but I didn't use any of those. I tried both sizes with: Craftsman with 3/8 square drive, Husky folding style, and 1/4" hex drive type. I'm uncertain of the brand for the hex drive type, or even if they were the same brand. I have several and they sometimes get co-mingled. All were in good to near-new condition. All seated fully and in every case the 5/32" had more rotational slop than the 4MM. In some cases the 4MM was a snug fit and there is some variation among brands or individual tools.
I wasn't advocating the Bondhus or other 4MM as a replacement, though that is certainly how I'm going to use it. I was advocating that individuals try it for themselves with tools they already have and make their own decision. I'm not surprised that some don't fit, I was still concerned about that possibility when my Bondhus showed up. But I like the fit much better. Since adding a PowerPro, and knowing that there seems to be a systemic issue with setscrews coming loose, I tighten these fasteners much tighter than I used to or ever felt necessary, and the better fit between tool and fastener is important to me so I feel that I can tighten it without feeling like I'm going to strip the head or tool.
I tried the Bondhus 4MM in a brand new Shopsmith arbor-type setscrew. It seats fully, and has less rotational slop than any 5/32" tool I have. So where others have tried the same thing and it won't fully seat, I would conclude that either their tools are slightly larger or the socket in the screw/setscrew is slightly smaller. This could be either due to differing nominal values or differing tolerances.
I found a few specifications that I think add some clarity to this and to why our results vary. Fastenal has specifications on most, if not all, of their fasteners, but few tools. I looked for specifications for the Bondhus tools, there and elsewhere, without success.
I checked several examples of socket head screws and setscrews with 5/32" socket. The specifications consistently gave a range of 0.1562 - 0.1587". I found specs for only one tool, a short "L" style 5/32", which had a range of 0.1547 - 0.1562".
If the same range is common among tools and 4 MM is similar, my calculated hypothetical range of 4 MM tools, in inches, would be 0.1560 - 0.1575". Some 4 MM tools would lie at the upper end of the range of the 5/32" tools, some would be oversized.
DLB wrote:I found a few specifications that I think add some clarity to this and to why our results vary. Fastenal has specifications on most, if not all, of their fasteners, but few tools. I looked for specifications for the Bondhus tools, there and elsewhere, without success.
I checked several examples of socket head screws and setscrews with 5/32" socket. The specifications consistently gave a range of 0.1562 - 0.1587". I found specs for only one tool, a short "L" style 5/32", which had a range of 0.1547 - 0.1562".
If the same range is common among tools and 4 MM is similar, my calculated hypothetical range of 4 MM tools, in inches, would be 0.1560 - 0.1575". Some 4 MM tools would lie at the upper end of the range of the 5/32" tools, some would be oversized.
- David
David,
I took some measurements on my wrenches to offer for comparison, if it helps. Hesitant to share these because I am sure there is some user error in my measurements, particularly for the points measurements. On the Klein Tools 5/32" wrench, I measured 0.1530" on the flats and 0.1735" on the points. The well worn Eklind (part #51910) that I have is 0.1525" on the flats and 0.1730" on the points. By comparison, my Klein Tools 4.0mm wrench is 0.1545" on the flats and 0.1750" on the points. I am using my Mitutoyo (part #500-197-30) 8" digital caliper to measure this which has a factory calibration. Still I can't know for certain that the absolute measurement is correct, but the delta, e.g. the relative measurement between these should be useful to compare.
RFGuy wrote:...On the Klein Tools 5/32" wrench, I measured 0.1530" on the flats and 0.1735" on the points. The well worn Eklind (part #51910) that I have is 0.1525" on the flats and 0.1730" on the points. By comparison, my Klein Tools 4.0mm wrench is 0.1545" on the flats and 0.1750" on the points. I am using my Mitutoyo (part #500-197-30) 8" digital caliper to measure this which has a factory calibration...
I would use the flats for this discussion, the points are a good reference for tool wear. There are some things here I can't rationalize. Boiling that down to its simplest form, I can't rationalize how your Klein 4MM (0.1545" measured) does not fit into your 5/32" socket head screws (extrapolated spec at 0.1562 - 0.1587"). I don't readily find an accuracy spec for your calipers, only resolution (which is excellent). I infer accuracy of +/- .001" (same as my analog) but ???
DLB wrote:I would use the flats for this discussion, the points are a good reference for tool wear. There are some things here I can't rationalize. Boiling that down to its simplest form, I can't rationalize how your Klein 4MM (0.1545" measured) does not fit into your 5/32" socket head screws (extrapolated spec at 0.1562 - 0.1587"). I don't readily find an accuracy spec for your calipers, only resolution (which is excellent). I infer accuracy of +/- .001" (same as my analog) but ???
- David
David,
Yeah, I don't know either. What I do know though is that my calipers measure a difference of 0.0015" between my 5/32" Klein Tools hex wrench and my 4.0mm Klein Tools hex wrench. It is this delta that explains why the larger 4.0mm wrench won't fit in my 5/32" setscrews. I have tried looking online and I can't find any documentation on what the interior size is supposed to be for a socket head hex cap screw. I mean, a 5/32" screw can't have exactly 5/32" (0.15625") dimension inside it, right? There has to be some "slop" to allow for variance and ease of insertion of the wrench. Either the wrench has to be somewhat undersized and the screw is near exact dimension, or vice-versa or they both have some variance on the dimension to leave a gap to make insertion doable with surface roughness.
P.S. I found a website that claims my Mitutoyo calipers have an accuracy of +/-0.001 in /0.025mm with a resolution of 0.0005 in /0.01mm.
Thanks Dusty. So, if I am reading this correct then an M5 socket head screw has a 4.0mm socket head with 4.020mm to 4.084mm acceptable range in manufacturing, which is 0.1582677" to 0.1607874". By comparison, an Imperial #10 screw with a 5/32" socket head should have a manufacturing range of 0.1562" to 0.1587". From this, it looks like an M5 socket head just barely falls inside the upper range of a #10 socket head, but not by much (by about 4 thousandths which is 17% of the range). Of course, this assumes the wrench is an ideal size at nominal value. Anyone know how much variance to expect on the size of hex (Allen style) wrenches for comparison?
RF Guy