BREAKING NEWS: Shopsmith, Inc. Has A New Owner

Moderators: HopefulSSer, admin

Post Reply
RFGuy
Platinum Member
Posts: 2743
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
Location: a suburb of PHX, AZ

Re: BREAKING NEWS: Shopsmith, Inc. Has A New Owner

Post by RFGuy »

Dennis, JPG,

Yes, you are right and we have discussed this before on the forum as well. I did check the search terms for both "maker" and "CNC", with the first being a nebulous term. Both essentially flat over the entire timeframe that Google has tracked this. For me, I see it differently than you do. When I look at woodworking, there are both the pros and the amateurs (don't like this word, but it fits). The pros being the ones doing it for a living and this could be in a large commercial space or in a garage or home shop but at scale with good revenue coming in. Now "pro" here doesn't necessarily mean highly skilled. ;) Some "amateurs" who do it at home as a hobby, can be MORE skilled than those who do it in a professional setting. No value judgement here, but just trying to define the dataset. Example: Someone may profit by making & selling river tables, so they are in the "pro" category, but yet can't make a M&T joint to save their life, hence they are a less skilled woodworker than many "amateurs". IMHO, Shopsmith has sold predominantly to the home hobbyist woodworker, i.e. the amateur, NOT the pro. So, really my question is whether over the last 70 years that home hobbyist (amateur) woodworker has been in decline in numbers or not and this is an even more difficult metric to get at. In my opinion, maker is a trend that has come and gone. I mean there have been DIY people for decades that do their own welding, their own metal cutting, their own wrenching, their own screen printing, their own woodworking, their own X, their own Y, their own Z. Then all of a sudden someone decided to coin a marketing buzz word and leveraged it with social media and influencers to drive sales. So, pardon me, but I call BS on all of the maker insanity. :) Now, CNC's are interesting...they have attempted to invade the home woodworking shop and have made some inroads, but this gets back to the pro versus amateur discussion for me. I would argue that CNC's whether they cost tens of thousands of $ and reside in a commercial space or cost $5k and reside in a home workshop are vast majority being utilized by pros who are selling product for profit. There are only a handful of people, in my opinion, buying CNC's to play with in a home hobbyist shop...outliers. The reason I am framing this problem in this manner, is we started talking about Shopsmith and its TAM (total available market) and could it go up 25X in this reality in this universe??? So, I posit that Shopsmith is predominantly an amateur (hobbyist) machine, though there are a few who use them for pro work. Many of these pros are forum members here who post regularly and in my opinion are highly skilled as well and I enjoy their posts when they have time to break away from production and share with us hobbyists here. :D Still, in total numbers, I believe those doing "pro" work and making money with their Shopsmiths are few in number compared to the total number of Shopsmith owners out there who are hobbyists. So, for me comparing CNC operators/makers to Shopsmith owners is like comparing apples and oranges because they are two totally different markets. For me they are the rest of the market under the umbrella term "woodworking" since if you are turning (pun) out a wood product at the end of the day (for profit or enjoyment in the home) then you are by my definition a woodworker. Now, if you want to discuss how Shopsmith may/may not be able to capture more TAM by going after the pros then I would be happy to discuss this and would like to know what changes Shopsmith intends to make in this regard because I still don't see it as a "pro" machine. I still believe its value, its build quality, its feature set are geared towards the home hobbyist woodworker as it was marketed to 70 years ago. However, if they are going to re-engineer the machine to capture the "pro" woodworker then that could allow them to capture more TAM and attempt to approach 25X, though that is still a dream in my analysis, but hey what do I know? ;)
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
User avatar
chiroindixon
Gold Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:42 pm
Location: QCA Iowa

Re: BREAKING NEWS: Shopsmith, Inc. Has A New Owner

Post by chiroindixon »

Guys,

Forwarding a few sites for discussion a/o consideration. Watch/view and comment.

Did IKEA Destroy Carpentry And Woodworking?! ("THE IKEA EFFECT"...What It Means For Tradespeople) - YouTube

Quad Cities Woodturners (qcwoodturners.org)

Doc
User avatar
algale
Platinum Member
Posts: 4796
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:13 am

Re: BREAKING NEWS: Shopsmith, Inc. Has A New Owner

Post by algale »

The Shopsmith ought to be of interest to the self-identified "maker" because it can be used to do perform multiple operations, has variable speed that lets it work in wood, plastic, and some metals, and it is relatively compact. But shoulda, woulda, coulda, I don't think it is getting much positive attention.
Gale's Law: The bigger the woodworking project, the less the mistakes show in any photo taken far enough away to show the entire project!

RFGuy
Platinum Member
Posts: 2743
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
Location: a suburb of PHX, AZ

Re: BREAKING NEWS: Shopsmith, Inc. Has A New Owner

Post by RFGuy »

algale wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 8:36 am The Shopsmith ought to be of interest to the self-identified "maker" because it can be used to do perform multiple operations, has variable speed that lets it work in wood, plastic, and some metals, and it is relatively compact. But shoulda, woulda, coulda, I don't think it is getting much positive attention.
Alan,

Yeah, I agree with you and this could be an angle for Shopsmith and where it could show value. Also, I think A LOT of the "maker" movement is self-proclaimed, so without a juicy sponsor to back it up, no maker is going to choose Shopsmith. I mean would Glowforge even exist without social media and influencers peddling them? Just one example. Shopsmith would have to get behind this in a big way and pay influencers to push it to these so called "makers" or maker wannabes to convince them to buy, like Glowforge and all of the other "maker" manufacturers do. I still dispute that "makers" are anything new, but a buzzword created for marketing purposes.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
User avatar
Ed in Tampa
Platinum Member
Posts: 5830
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:45 am
Location: North Tampa Bay area Florida

Re: BREAKING NEWS: Shopsmith, Inc. Has A New Owner

Post by Ed in Tampa »

I think Buckeye Dennis has hit the nail. Today people do not think of woodworking but rather as makers using technology to create and execute their work. Fewer and fewer YouTube makers are using woodworking tools to create. Instead of saws and jointers they are using CNC, Lasers, plasma cutters, water cutters to prepare their material for use. Then they are using exotic glues, vacuum, air pressure instead of clamps and jigs. They may use small hand tools to enhance the fit or touch up an edge but almost nothing of traditional woodworking.
The price of a new Mark 7 in some cases is more expensive than a CNC laser or router machine.
With CNC type work you design in totally dust free environment, you then setup the machine start it again total clean and dust free. Go away overnight and come back the next day with all your material cut and prepared to be used. Meanwhile you can spend all the old normal shop time with the family or doing you thing with other technology.
When the project is done the only time you touch wood other than to moved it or assemble it is to dump dust collectors. You fingers, lungs, eyesight were never put in danger, your clothes are clean. And you can proudly say you made it. And you did you controlled the machines that did the work.
User avatar
Ed in Tampa
Platinum Member
Posts: 5830
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:45 am
Location: North Tampa Bay area Florida

Re: BREAKING NEWS: Shopsmith, Inc. Has A New Owner

Post by Ed in Tampa »

RF guy makes a good point between pro and home hobbyist. But I think most home hobbyist always have a dream, maybe in the back of their minds, to quite their job and make a living off their hobby.
Technology is evolving, today they are actual building houses using material printers, I have seen working cars built exclusively on CNC and material printer. And cost for these is tumbling while woodworking machines seem to be increasing prices like crazy.

Not too long ago the vision was build a house in a factory and ship it to day they take out a machine connect it to a computer and keep it supplied with material it prints a house. Look at most store bought furniture fewer and fewer pieces were ever near a saw they were cut on CNC and material printer. I saw a YouTube where they used a hand held material printer to create a new plumbing pipe in place. Heck they are not even using concrete to set posts anymore just get a bag of chemicals mix it and pour. Your hands never get dirty. They already build with chemical injection instead of mortar.
Then look at cost, with environmental concerns and cost of labor hobbyist wood is so expensive it prohibits most people from even considering it as an option. Easier and cheaper to get manufactured material built into what you want. And customizing is not a problem since it only requires a few keystrokes.
RFGuy
Platinum Member
Posts: 2743
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
Location: a suburb of PHX, AZ

Re: BREAKING NEWS: Shopsmith, Inc. Has A New Owner

Post by RFGuy »

Ed,

Hey, I am not against someone building/creating in a new form/fashion and using new technology. CNC's and laser cutters have been around a long time in the industry though. They are just becoming cheaper and more accessible to the overly rich woodworker/maker/jack-of-all-trades that chooses to buy them today. Not counting the cheap, Chinese made junk that gets passed off as a small format CNC, laser cutter, etc., but of course these exist in the marketplace too. I am all for technology being added to the wood shop, but I also have deep respect for anyone that chooses to maintain/expand their traditional woodworking skills. There is a real art to using hand tools in woodworking and something I hope to continue to improve in the future, but I also have the other side of me, where with infinite time and budget who wouldn't want all the latest tech gadgets to play with in their wood shop?

So, is the new Gen 3 PP going to be a single push button? I upload my CAD drawings and push the button and leave the shop to come back later and the project is done? Man, sign me up...I want one of those!!! :D
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
woodshopnerdery
Silver Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri May 28, 2021 10:45 pm

Re: BREAKING NEWS: Shopsmith, Inc. Has A New Owner

Post by woodshopnerdery »

I'm glad to see Shopsmith sold to an enthusiastic new owner. Let's face it, it was going to happen someday. And it seems on the surface, for now, that Nick Cupps is the best we, as owners, could hope for. And I think it was something akin to divine providence that the 75th owners' meeting fell during week 1 of his leadership. I believe our presence, knowledge, enthusiasm, and yes spending too, made an impression on him that will benefit Shopsmith customers.

Will Nick Cupps be more motivated by profit than the Folkerths? Yes, of course, he has investors to satisfy, and it's a good thing. He will invest in efficiencies in both the supply chain and the manufacturing and assembly floor. He will take control of the Shopsmith marketing message to increase sales volumes. He will try to bring new products and innovations to the market. I believe he will take an "All Generations" approach in his strategy to connect potential customers to the brand. For 20-somethings that could be supporting their used Mark V. For retirees that will be promoting a new Mark 7. Some of what he tries will fail and some of what he tries will succeed.

Who has $6,000 to spend on a new Shopsmith? Lots of people. Yes, lots don't and thank god there are wonderful Mark V 510/520 machines out there used for very affordable prices. But many people spend $6,000 and much more on yearly vacations, boats, cabins, hunting trips, cars, horses, sports cars, pianos, decks, bathroom remodels, and so on and so on. There is a market, and there is money in the market to support increasing Mark 7 sales multiple times over.

Why would someone buy a new Mark 7 over a SawStop? Some won't, they will buy the SawStop. But many have chosen Shopsmith over the competition and will again. The Mark 5/7 offers many unique features that deliver legitimate value to the hobbyist. These features will attract some people to the brand.

Are people still interested in woodworking as a hobby? I believe so. In my opinion, interest in woodworking as a hobby, even at its peak, is not the result of a bygone culture or a lost element of human nature. It was the result of marketing and education campaigns spearheaded by the major tool manufacturers. For example, it's my opinion that Shopsmith commissioned the writing of "Power Tool Woodworking for Everyone" not to sell books, but to sell machines. They did it because Delta and other major manufacturers were doing the same thing. Woodworking businesses can easily drive a new renaissance of hobbyist woodworking through those same tools, education and marketing. Education and Marketing will look different in 2023 as compared to 1955, but it still will work.

Let's not forget wood. It's strong, beautiful and somehow both simple and mysterious at the same time. I believe people will always be interested in any tool that helps them experience this amazing natural material. Regarding the popularity of CNC machines and other new ways of making things, I think there are probably a lot of parallels to what happened 100 years ago as electric-powered tools became available. Yes, they sold fewer hand saws and hand planes as a result. But those tools have not disappeared from the face of the planet. In fact, many power tool woodworkers are re-discovering hand tools and folding them into their process. The fact is, there are some tasks where reaching for the bench plane is faster and better than a complicated jig set up on a table saw. New exciting items will always draw interest and over time people will settle into whatever works best.

I believe Nick Cupps made a smart choice. Shopsmith has HUGE untapped potential. And he as a smart business man has every chance of making it go.
RFGuy
Platinum Member
Posts: 2743
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
Location: a suburb of PHX, AZ

Re: BREAKING NEWS: Shopsmith, Inc. Has A New Owner

Post by RFGuy »

Tom,

For the sake of all Shopsmith owners I hope you are right. I will gladly accept being wrong if it means Shopsmith employees get to continue to work and another American company gets to continue to produce and all of you can still purchase parts from them and etc. For me, it isn't about me being right, but when something differs so far afield from what I see as the true reality I do choose to call it out and elaborate on what I see (perhaps to educate or to learn for myself and adjust my own perspective). For everyone's sake, let's hope I am wrong...
woodshopnerdery wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:09 am Will Nick Cupps be more motivated by profit than the Folkerths? Yes, of course, he has investors to satisfy, and it's a good thing. He will invest in efficiencies in both the supply chain and the manufacturing and assembly floor.
Yes, every business has the primary goal of profit and that is understood. What I am calling into question is the roadmap for the company. Private equity just purchased Shopsmith. Having seen first hand how companies are run after being acquired by private equity and also those who have gone through M&A's I have more direct personal experience than most in this regard. I hope for the best for Shopsmith, but I also understand the new business reality that they have entered because of being acquired by private equity. My analysis is above in a previous post and I don't need to repeat it. I do expect an exit in one form of another by this private equity in a few years when they meet their profit targets or when they don't. :(
woodshopnerdery wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:09 am I believe he will take an "All Generations" approach in his strategy to connect potential customers to the brand. For 20-somethings that could be supporting their used Mark V. For retirees that will be promoting a new Mark 7. Some of what he tries will fail and some of what he tries will succeed.
Saint Nick actually said the opposite on the interview. 20 somethings weren't even mentioned as a target market. He made a comment along the lines of not being able to get the 30 year olds and indicated his main market growth area would be people his age, i.e. 40-50ish. I am not willing to listen to the entire interview again to get you exact quotes, but I believe these are right. Now, the aspiration may be to sell to all generations, but not what was said IMHO on the call.
woodshopnerdery wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:09 am Who has $6,000 to spend on a new Shopsmith? Lots of people. Yes, lots don't and thank god there are wonderful Mark V 510/520 machines out there used for very affordable prices. But many people spend $6,000 and much more on yearly vacations, boats, cabins, hunting trips, cars, horses, sports cars, pianos, decks, bathroom remodels, and so on and so on. There is a market, and there is money in the market to support increasing Mark 7 sales multiple times over.
I don't see it. Honestly, I only see one market that perhaps Saint Nick is going after...Baby Boomer retirees who had a family member or some other personal connection with Shopsmith and have the disposable income and interest to purchase one now. Unless he is going to start taking out Superbowl commercials for Shopsmith, I really don't see how he is going to reach the rest of the market. Certainly not increasing Mark 7 sales multiples times over.
woodshopnerdery wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:09 am Are people still interested in woodworking as a hobby? I believe so. In my opinion, interest in woodworking as a hobby, even at its peak, is not the result of a bygone culture or a lost element of human nature. It was the result of marketing and education campaigns spearheaded by the major tool manufacturers. For example, it's my opinion that Shopsmith commissioned the writing of "Power Tool Woodworking for Everyone" not to sell books, but to sell machines. They did it because Delta and other major manufacturers were doing the same thing. Woodworking businesses can easily drive a new renaissance of hobbyist woodworking through those same tools, education and marketing. Education and Marketing will look different in 2023 as compared to 1955, but it still will work.
Yes, people are still interested in woodworking as a hobby, but they are the ones already doing it to begin with. I conjecture there is more market cannibalization going on (market share swaps between tool manufacturers). IF the TAM isn't growing, then this is all you have, trading market share between manufacturers. I posit that the TAM isn't growing and that Shopsmith will have to steal market share from other tool manufacturers which is why I question the validity of a multiple times sales increase. So, it becomes important to consider at a society level are the number of woodworkers in decline or not? LOTS of anecdotal evidence and discussion of this in the past on this forum that unfortunately supports the idea that woodworking, as a hobby, by a younger generation is in serious decline. We could debate the definition of woodworker vs. maker vs. X all day so let's not go there. I shared up above (link below) how Google searches and YT searches for "woodworking" and even "Shopsmith" have dropped off a cliff and haven't recovered. In the absence of actual market research data this is all that I have to go on. However, there is also the federal government BLS data we can use to try to gleam some insights. According to the BLS, woodworkers (pros - getting paid for it) were approximately 238.9k jobs in 2022 and is expected to decline by 2.7k jobs through 2032. So, it is a small decline, but the number of active professionals engaged in woodworking in the industry is on the decline. Important to note that actual openings in the field are only to replace attrition, i.e. retirements and those who choose a different occupation and leave the industry. This is important IMHO because woodworking as a hobby at home can also follow from those who do it professionally and need to remodel their own kitchen or want to build their own furniture, etc., etc. So, if the professional woodworker job pool is shrinking, albeit slowly, then there also fewer pros who might take on woodworking at home and want to purchase a Shopsmith.

"Most of those openings are expected to result from the need to replace workers who transfer to different occupations or exit the labor force, such as to retire."

viewtopic.php?p=311697#p311697

BLS data on woodworkers:
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/woodworkers.htm


All of this discussion begs the question, in 2023 who is a Shopsmith customer and why are they buying? Getting answers on those demographics and the "why?" would be very enlightening IMHO.
Last edited by RFGuy on Mon Oct 23, 2023 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
BigSky
Gold Member
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:16 am
Location: MT

Re: BREAKING NEWS: Shopsmith, Inc. Has A New Owner

Post by BigSky »

It is far too soon to be evaluating the wisdom of Mr Cupps acquisition. Furthermore, none of us (owners) have enough information to do that. Still furthermore, are we really using data gathered from the internet to evaluate data gathered from the internet??
Post Reply