shaper setup problem?

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tryinhard
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Post by tryinhard »

tryinhard wrote:Dusty--

:eek: I tried this method but used the safety grip hold down as well. It was DISASTER! Even though I was holding the safety grip for dear life, the workpiece JUMPED FORWARD (yes, forward) and I turned white. After I shut everything down, the workpiece had a huge gouge where it had dug into the cutter. I don't think I will try this again.
dusty wrote:Mike, anytime a piece of wood decides to go its own direction there is good reason to be concerned.

But, can you be a bit more specific in describing exactly what you were doing. Were you trying to use the rod to prevent the work piece from creeping away from the cutter? Were there any feather boards involved?

A picture would be real neat.
I can't give you a picture because it happened a long while ago, while I was trying to learn how to use the shaper fence and all the equipment. I had the arrangement you set up. The vertical featherboard was installed, but the fingers were raised so the miter gauge would pass underneath. I think the board was about 3 inch wide by 8 inch long by 3/4 thick practice piece. I had the miter gauge with safety grip holding the workpiece, and had the miter stop rod installed thinking it would keep the piece from pushing away from the cutter. I had already learned that any crossgrain cut needed to be as light as possible, and done very slowly. I started the cut, and was about 3/4 inch into it when the piece jumped forward (in the direction I was pushing) away from the miter gauge as it pivoted on the stop rod. The jump was accompanied by a loud bang. Because of the tight grip I had on the safety grip, the board only pulled away about an inch. After I got the machine turned off, I found a large gouge where the cutter had grabbed the piece. I agree that it does not make sense that the piece jumped forward, but that is what happened.
Mike
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dusty
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Post by dusty »

I have been giving this a lot of thought and I now doubt the wisdom of that setup. I am going to delete my post showing the stop rod being used.

We all know not to trap a work piece between the rip fence and the blade. Somehow this seems similar. We have the work piece trapped between the cutter and the stop rod.

I don't know that this is the problem but I'll not take another chance.

I would be very interested in hearing the opinions of other on this subject.
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Ed in Tampa
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Post by Ed in Tampa »

z-man wrote:Hey there. Anyone have any ideas what me and my son are doing wrong when it comes to successfully using our SS shaper to use the rail and stile cutters? Our problem is that when we shape the end grain the result is always out of square. We've worked and worked again to try to get the miter guage square to the shaper fence and all of that square to the table, but we keep ending up with scrap wood.

In all cases, the cutter is cutting deeper at the beginning edge of the work piece than at the end. It's like the work piece is gradually moving away from the fence.

Any ideas?

Many thanks.

PS I've had my SS for 25 years but this is my first post. Glad I found this forum.

To end grain cut on a shaper, router table or moulder you usually need backup wood to prevent tear out. That is first and foremost. By the way this is usually called the coping cut.

To accomplish that you need to have you work piece securely attached to the backup piece.

To do this on the SS shaper you can't use mitre gauge and the overhead feather board as others have proved here already.

If you insist on using the mitre gauge which isn't needed for this operation here is what you will have to do.

First place you backup board against the mitre gauge fence then your work piece and if it were me a I would place another piece of scrap in front of the work piece but that is entirely up to you. Then you need to clamp the two or three pieces securely to the mitre gauge fence using a clamp with a throat opening large enough to span both boards (or three if you use front backup board)

Then feed the work in at a very very slow pace. If the wood is securely clamped there will be not movement up or down/forward or backward/away from or toward the cutter.


What I would do is not use the mitre gauge which I don't like because of the closeness of the metal to cutter in shaper operations is a sled. The sled would either simply ride against the shaper fence or in the mitre slot. The work piece would ride on the sled not in front or behind. The sled would be constructed that it has a fence that perfectly perpendicular to the shaper fence. Against that fence would be a piece of back up wood, then my work piece and again a front back up board. All three would be held to the sled with lever clamps.
A good picture of this can be seen at http://lumberjocks.com/projects/1061

You then adjust the shaper cutter to cut the wood and not the sled. I personally change the backup wood on each cut. I can get four cuts from each back up board before I have to cut new edges on them. Some people believe as long as the profile matches the cutter that is sufficient and keep using the same backup over and over. I find after a few cuts the edges get fuzzy and require more sanding so I just change the backup board.

That is how I would do it.
Ed in Tampa
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ldh
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Post by ldh »

FWIW this little 108 page book on using the shaper put out by Delta in the early 40s has a lot of info that has helped me over the years. It has been reprinted many times and I think it is still available.

Getting the most out or your shaper
Linden Publishing 1996?
Subjects Shapers

ISBN: 0-941936-01-5

Description: 108 p.

ldh
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JPG
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Post by JPG »

tryinhard wrote:Dusty--

:eek: I tried this method but used the safety grip hold down as well. It was DISASTER! Even though I was holding the safety grip for dear life, the workpiece JUMPED FORWARD (yes, forward) and I turned white. After I shut everything down, the workpiece had a huge gouge where it had dug into the cutter. I don't think I will try this again.

After some mind wander around this 'incident', I have come to this conclusion.

By feeding it slowly and cautiously at the 3/4" point into the cut, you(the 'operator') relaxed a bit prior to feeding it further. At that point the miter gauge retracted ever so slightly allowing the workpiece to get cocked. This created a jam condition between the shaper fence and the stop rod(here we go again!!!!!)

At this point the leading edge of the cutter pushed the workpiece and the miter gauge back causing the 'cocking' to get more severe. This continued until the cutter 'grabbed' and the bang ensued. This startled the 'operator' and caused an involuntary retraction of the miter gauge. Since the work piece is wedged between the stop rod and the fence, the motion of the stop rod pulled the away end while the fence end stayed put(work piece rotated at both ends.

Looking down you observed the shaper end closer to the cutter than the stop rod end. You concluded that the work piece had been pulled into the cutter and caused the gouge.

Me thinks the reverse was the case. JMHO
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a1gutterman
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Post by a1gutterman »

dusty wrote:I have been giving this a lot of thought and I now doubt the wisdom of that setup. I am going to delete my post showing the stop rod being used.

We all know not to trap a work piece between the rip fence and the blade. Somehow this seems similar. We have the work piece trapped between the cutter and the stop rod.

I don't know that this is the problem but I'll not take another chance.

I would be very interested in hearing the opinions of other on this subject.
Hi Dusty,

Knot withstanding Red's post (#44), I think that your set-up is safe. The stop rod is traveling with the work piece, which is being held tight to the miter guage with the safety pistol grip. Comparing it with the rip fence is understandable, but in that situation you are sliding the work piece along the fence where it can "rock" and get pinched between the blade and the fence. I do knot think that when using the stop rod, you will be "rocking" the work piece (unless, like Red is suggesting, you pull the miter guage back, which could cause the work piece to "rock"). Well, that is my opinion.
Tim

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JPG
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Post by JPG »

a1gutterman wrote:Hi Dusty,

Knot withstanding Red's post (#44), I think that your set-up is safe. The stop rod is traveling with the work piece, which is being held tight to the miter guage with the safety pistol grip. Comparing it with the rip fence is understandable, but in that situation you are sliding the work piece along the fence where it can "rock" and get pinched between the blade and the fence. I do knot think that when using the stop rod, you will be "rocking" the work piece (unless, like Red is suggesting, you pull the miter guage back, which could cause the work piece to "rock"). Well, that is my opinion.
I agree! It is necessary to keep forward feed throughout the cut. The addition of the shaper fence so that both ends are securely bound is not the same as the freedom when the saw blade is used. In that case the moving saw blade is the object creating the bound condition.(that ain't good)
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tryinhard
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Miter stop rod setup

Post by tryinhard »

There has been discussion as to whether the miter stop rod setup to hold the workpiece in place is safe if constant forward motion is maintained during the cut. Two questions:

1. When using this setup, should the workpiece NOT contact the shaper fence? Would the piece hitting the fence lead to it being pinched or twisted, and thus thrust into the cutter?

2. I have never used a coping sled with the shaper setup. Is the requirement for constant forward motion the same for that? I have never seen any warning along that line in anything I have read about using a sled.

Thanks
Mike
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JPG
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Post by JPG »

tryinhard wrote:There has been discussion as to whether the miter stop rod setup to hold the workpiece in place is safe if constant forward motion is maintained during the cut. Two questions:

1. When using this setup, should the workpiece NOT contact the shaper fence? Would the piece hitting the fence lead to it being pinched or twisted, and thus thrust into the cutter?

2. I have never used a coping sled with the shaper setup. Is the requirement for constant forward motion the same for that? I have never seen any warning along that line in anything I have read about using a sled.

Thanks

MHO! The safety 'issue' is the potential of pinching(cocking) the workpiece. The absolute 'no-no' is when the rotating blade is one of the 'pinching' surfaces. This is why the workpiece should be clear of a stop block prior to contacting the blade.

The subject in this thread has to do with the shaper fence and the use of a stop rod on the miter gauge. I do not think it is as hazardous, as long as the workpiece is not 'backed up' while contacting the cutter. It is this motion which allows the workpiece to get cocked(caught) between the stop rod and the shaper fence. If forward motion is maintained throughout the cutting, the miter gauge face prevents the cocking.

In any event caution should be exercised as the potential does exist if the workpiece is not held firmly against the miter gauge face.
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E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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