I was just thinking maybe shopsmith needs a more personal touch. Perhaps Nick with his "shop dog" posters signed by him would be something they could sell. Then those of you who can, could buy one for at your work place. Maybe get one to put up in your office or maybe in a common place.
Just to make it seem like it is not an "ad" you could add some text about "working safe for you and your pet" or????
Or maybe we leave Nick out of the picture and just have the dog sitting next to a shopsmith with a message like "Work safe for Me". Perhaps someone has a "shop cat" we could get a picture of and do one for cat "lovers".
Ed
How can we help Shopsmith?
Moderators: HopefulSSer, admin
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a1gutterman
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 3653
- Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:45 am
- Location: "close to" Seattle
Helping Shopsmith
To Dusty and everyone:
How has your investigation of your shop equipment been going? How many USA made vs. foriegn made tools in your shop? USA company names do not necessarily translate into USA made.
To john and reible:
This thread Hijacked? Buying USA made helps all USA companies including SS. Buying non-USA made hurts them all, including SS.
To Ed in Tampa:
If convincing your union members to vote for extravagant wages and benefits isn't
How has your investigation of your shop equipment been going? How many USA made vs. foriegn made tools in your shop? USA company names do not necessarily translate into USA made.
To john and reible:
This thread Hijacked? Buying USA made helps all USA companies including SS. Buying non-USA made hurts them all, including SS.
To Ed in Tampa:
If convincing your union members to vote for extravagant wages and benefits isn't
I don't know what is. I agree with your Chinese sentiments; bought any shoes lately?Human Greed
Tim
Buying US made products will help keep YOUR job or retirement funds safer.
Buying US made products will help keep YOUR job or retirement funds safer.
"Thread hijacking is the act of trying to steer a web forum discussion thread off topic by discussing a subject entirely unrelated to the subject at hand.
While this can be an intentional act of trolling, it is often accidental - caused by other participants in the discussion responding to a throwaway remark, taking the thread off at a tangent to the original subject matter. The results, whilst sometimes humorous or otherwise interesting, often provoke a feeling of resentment from the author of the original post."
So the correct form would be like:
"I'm going to buy american because it helps shopsmith."
On the other hand
"We should all buy american."
Is a different subject.
So rather then fight it this thread is now open to any and all post on any and all subjects. In fact I have been doing my own trolling over the last couple of weeks. In fact I encourage everyone to post on different subjects having nothing at all to do with the title... I especial like ones that tell shopsmith how to run their business... they are quit interesting.
So what kind of spooktacular costumes featuring shopsmith are you going to come up with. Maybe sending one of your kids out as a belt sander? Hey how about as a router table?? Just make sure you have the word shopsmith clearly printed on it so they don't get confused over brands. Hey too bad they don't have chocolate mark V's to hand out.... maybe next year??
Ed
While this can be an intentional act of trolling, it is often accidental - caused by other participants in the discussion responding to a throwaway remark, taking the thread off at a tangent to the original subject matter. The results, whilst sometimes humorous or otherwise interesting, often provoke a feeling of resentment from the author of the original post."
So the correct form would be like:
"I'm going to buy american because it helps shopsmith."
On the other hand
"We should all buy american."
Is a different subject.
So rather then fight it this thread is now open to any and all post on any and all subjects. In fact I have been doing my own trolling over the last couple of weeks. In fact I encourage everyone to post on different subjects having nothing at all to do with the title... I especial like ones that tell shopsmith how to run their business... they are quit interesting.
So what kind of spooktacular costumes featuring shopsmith are you going to come up with. Maybe sending one of your kids out as a belt sander? Hey how about as a router table?? Just make sure you have the word shopsmith clearly printed on it so they don't get confused over brands. Hey too bad they don't have chocolate mark V's to hand out.... maybe next year??
Ed
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popstoyshop
- Gold Member
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:35 am
Helping Shopsmith
Hi Folks !
I've been reading this thread for a couple of days. I'de like to make several points.
To qualify myself I've been in & around SS since the 7th grade shop. (I'm now 67) I've had my own for about 40 years. I'm the mentor for Shopsmith & TotalShop in the Charlotte Woodworker's Association. (I own one of each) I am very much a SS fan. I also work at a local woodworking store & sell machinery, wood, finishes etc.
First, Shopsmith is very expensive. This is part of the price for being made in the US. Some of the "special purpose" tools are great. Some are ok in a pinch & several are just not-so-hot. The basic machine performs all functions well, but some like the tilting table saw are very limited in making things like compound cuts. When I bought my 520 I spent around $10,000.00. I could have well fitted out my shop with stand-alones for the same amount or less. I didn't have the space. I bought about everything but the thickness plane & scroll saw. Why! The scroll saw is $650.00 and offers me nothing any other run-of-the-mill scroll saw would offer. For about $100.00 less I bought a DeWalt (made by or under license from Excaluaber).
(I wish SS still made the jigsaw. I have one and it's a wonderful tool.)
The surface plane! Come on guys, a 12 inch plane powered by a 1-1/8 hp. motor! All This for $950.00. For $1200.00 I have a Powermatic 15 in. plane powered by a 3 hp. motor. This points out some of the cost vs performance issues SS has.
Second, there other reasons for woodworking becoming an old man's game. The schools in my area have dropped their industrial arts classes. The mighty wise ones have concluded that shop, drafting, auto mechanics etc. are jobs no longer needed. Now! You must study computers. At last check there were more computer techs than we need times 2. I took shop from 7 through 12 except for one year of drafting. Drafting put the food on the table fro my family for years. One of my sons is an automotive master tech. & he makes a very good living. I could go on for ever on this subject, but the bottom line is our education systems are not providing that first taste
of woodworking.
Another point is our young folks are being conditioned to computers to the extent that they spend hours chatting, playing games etc. Most kids sit and become obese. They don't even breath fresh air. Heck! And we wonder why they aren't attracted to building a woodshop.
This problem is much bigger that Shopsmith's prices.
Bill G.
I've been reading this thread for a couple of days. I'de like to make several points.
To qualify myself I've been in & around SS since the 7th grade shop. (I'm now 67) I've had my own for about 40 years. I'm the mentor for Shopsmith & TotalShop in the Charlotte Woodworker's Association. (I own one of each) I am very much a SS fan. I also work at a local woodworking store & sell machinery, wood, finishes etc.
First, Shopsmith is very expensive. This is part of the price for being made in the US. Some of the "special purpose" tools are great. Some are ok in a pinch & several are just not-so-hot. The basic machine performs all functions well, but some like the tilting table saw are very limited in making things like compound cuts. When I bought my 520 I spent around $10,000.00. I could have well fitted out my shop with stand-alones for the same amount or less. I didn't have the space. I bought about everything but the thickness plane & scroll saw. Why! The scroll saw is $650.00 and offers me nothing any other run-of-the-mill scroll saw would offer. For about $100.00 less I bought a DeWalt (made by or under license from Excaluaber).
(I wish SS still made the jigsaw. I have one and it's a wonderful tool.)
The surface plane! Come on guys, a 12 inch plane powered by a 1-1/8 hp. motor! All This for $950.00. For $1200.00 I have a Powermatic 15 in. plane powered by a 3 hp. motor. This points out some of the cost vs performance issues SS has.
Second, there other reasons for woodworking becoming an old man's game. The schools in my area have dropped their industrial arts classes. The mighty wise ones have concluded that shop, drafting, auto mechanics etc. are jobs no longer needed. Now! You must study computers. At last check there were more computer techs than we need times 2. I took shop from 7 through 12 except for one year of drafting. Drafting put the food on the table fro my family for years. One of my sons is an automotive master tech. & he makes a very good living. I could go on for ever on this subject, but the bottom line is our education systems are not providing that first taste
of woodworking.
Another point is our young folks are being conditioned to computers to the extent that they spend hours chatting, playing games etc. Most kids sit and become obese. They don't even breath fresh air. Heck! And we wonder why they aren't attracted to building a woodshop.
This problem is much bigger that Shopsmith's prices.
Bill G.
One who works with his hands is a laborer.
One who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman.
One who works with his hands, his head and his heart is an artist.
One who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman.
One who works with his hands, his head and his heart is an artist.
Something to ponder: School Boards are elected. Legislators who vote for unfair foreign trade agreements are elected. The people who refuse to prevent blood sucking, ambulance chasing, lawyers from bringing endless frivilous lawsuits and getting rich whether they win or lose, are elected. The HONORABLE folks in our highest offices who claim private morality is irrelevant to public service are elected (year after year!) Maybe the problem is: "We the people!..."popstoyshop wrote:the bottom line is our education systems are not providing that first taste
of woodworking.
When I was growing up, we kids did what our parents told us to do!POPSTOYSHOP wrote:Another point is our young folks are being conditioned to computers to the extent that they spend hours chatting, playing games etc. Most kids sit and become obese. They don't even breath fresh air. Bill G.
Now, the state of affairs seem as though:
The teachers are afraid of the principle.
The principle is afraid of the school board.
The school Board is afraid of the parents.
The parents are afraid of the kids. but,
The kids ain't afraid of nobody!
Do we blame the kids or the parents?
Well, since we've gone from "How can we help Shopsmith" to "How to save the world", there's my humble opinion.
Maybe we should rename this thread: "Everything you ever wanted to know about everything or nothing":)
Alan
'Baking The World A Better Place'
'Baking The World A Better Place'
Bill - I read your post, and then read it again - this is good as well as thoughtful! Read it a third time. I would like to try to re-emphasis a couple of your points.popstoyshop wrote:Hi Folks !
I've been reading this thread for a couple of days. I'de like to make several points....
...This points out some of the cost vs performance issues SS has....
...One of my sons is an automotive master tech. & he makes a very good living....
...the bottom line is our education systems are not providing that first taste
of woodworking....
Another point is our young folks are being conditioned to computers to the extent that they spend hours chatting, playing games etc. Most kids sit and become obese. They don't even breath fresh air. Heck! And we wonder why they aren't attracted to building a woodshop.
This problem is much bigger that Shopsmith's prices.
Bill G.
The cost vs. performance issues - this is a good point, but it has to apply to every tool maker - not just Shopsmith.
Your son being an automotive Master Tech.-- Isn't it interesting that with today's autos, we need techs - not just trained mechanics?
Education systems are also, by necessity, tied to (handicapped) by today's technology. They have to teach subjects that will boost the kids into the future and they only have 9 Months each year and limited days.
Yes, our children and grandchildren, while well versed in computers and cell phones, are devoid of many of the knowledge to make things themselves. I call this phenomenon "Urbanization". A big part of Urbanization is:- It's all about money! "Gotta have more!" This leads to the theory: - "I can buy that easier (and faster) than I can make it". That thought and practice is alive and well! Urbanization has spread through not only the U.S., but through most parts of the industrialized world.
Another set of circumstances brought about by Urbanization:
Today, we find young adults that know how to book an airliner, rent a car, hail a taxi, order a meal however do not know that milk comes from animals, meat comes from animals, that toilet paper comes from trees, that aspirin comes from trees, that quinine came from tree a tree disease (decay fungus), that weather and natural phenomenons must be appreciated and planned for, etc.,etc.. They will preach environmental conservancy, but while knowing nothing substantial about our environment.
I agree, the younger generation knows how to compute and text, but can't cope when the power goes off for an extended time. To build things out of wood just doesn't figure into there lifestyle.
Yes, The problem is much bigger than Shopsmith's prices or financial condition. However, we can help by educating some of our young when their time permits. Hat's off to Nick and "his youngsters" as an example.
If I can teach two about woodworking and you, and you, and you (at infinitum) can also teach two. It just might make a difference.
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Just thought I had to jump in on one of Bill G.'s comments about schooling, or lack of it, as applied to trades.
Our local Montreal paper had a full page article recently about the lack of skilled trades people due to the trend in schools to do away with those types of courses. As has been mentioned, schools and society have directed young people away from trade and technical skills and focussed primarily on intellectual streams.
Apparently this is now coming back to bite us and the trades schools in this area are placing over 90% of their students as soon as they complete a course, but are having a hard time attracting students. They also report that these people are going into some pretty high paying jobs.
So far, the high schools have not reversed their position. None of my children (6) were introduced to trades in their high school years though 3 of my grandchildren have had a very elementary course in woodworking. In fact during a fund raiser craft show at their school a couple of years ago, the WW teacher was so impressed with my exhibit (compared to what they were producing) he asked if I would come with some of my projects, to give encouragement to his students. After giving him my number, I never heard from him again.
Sadly many of this generation does not get to feel the satifaction of a well done handmade piece, and so they will not be inclined to buy Shopsmith.
Have fun!
John
Our local Montreal paper had a full page article recently about the lack of skilled trades people due to the trend in schools to do away with those types of courses. As has been mentioned, schools and society have directed young people away from trade and technical skills and focussed primarily on intellectual streams.
Apparently this is now coming back to bite us and the trades schools in this area are placing over 90% of their students as soon as they complete a course, but are having a hard time attracting students. They also report that these people are going into some pretty high paying jobs.
So far, the high schools have not reversed their position. None of my children (6) were introduced to trades in their high school years though 3 of my grandchildren have had a very elementary course in woodworking. In fact during a fund raiser craft show at their school a couple of years ago, the WW teacher was so impressed with my exhibit (compared to what they were producing) he asked if I would come with some of my projects, to give encouragement to his students. After giving him my number, I never heard from him again.
Sadly many of this generation does not get to feel the satifaction of a well done handmade piece, and so they will not be inclined to buy Shopsmith.
Have fun!
John
I had thought about my last post and was headed back to add a post script - then read John's note about increasing trade training. Didn't know that was going on - but was happy to read it
Now, to what I was going to add as a P.S. - - There are still loads of kids being raised in rural areas of this country. I am sure that although they may not be receiving formal education in manual arts, they are certainly being schooled or exposed in other ways, about machining, wood working, and ways of our natural biological world. All is not lost!
However there is still need for manual arts training for our youth. I see this as a responsibility of all of us. Woodworking clubs can play a great part in this, as can we as individuals.
Now, to what I was going to add as a P.S. - - There are still loads of kids being raised in rural areas of this country. I am sure that although they may not be receiving formal education in manual arts, they are certainly being schooled or exposed in other ways, about machining, wood working, and ways of our natural biological world. All is not lost!
However there is still need for manual arts training for our youth. I see this as a responsibility of all of us. Woodworking clubs can play a great part in this, as can we as individuals.
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
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Ed in Tampa
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 5832
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:45 am
- Location: North Tampa Bay area Florida
The high school's position merely reflects society's position, if you do manual labor your beneath those that use only intellect. Think about it, we will gladly pay a CEO extreme amounts of money but balk at paying a lineman that climbs poles in the middle of a storm to restore power. Frankly I think anyone that climbs a pole in the middle of a storm to deal with 100's of volts so we can have power should be paid far and above any CEO. I also think farmers should be paid more for growing food than a guy that pushes paper around all day. I think a carpenter that builds homes for people should be paid more than some exec that buys companies and dismantles them for profit.john wrote: Apparently this is now coming back to bite us and the trades schools in this area are placing over 90% of their students as soon as they complete a course, but are having a hard time attracting students. They also report that these people are going into some pretty high paying jobs.
So far, the high schools have not reversed their position.
John
Somehow we have learned to place value not in things that are necessities but rather in things feed our ego's.
How does this all help SS? I don't think it does. But I think everyone of us better wake up and began teaching our children, our grandchildern and our neighbor kids what is important. Perhaps then "handcrafted" will mean more to future society than what it does today.
Ed
I buy the very best power tools I can afford.
Period!
If they happen to be "made in USA," then great.
It used to be a given that if it was made in the USA, then it already was the very best available. That is no longer the case.
I don't really care who's fault it is (or was) -- unions, corporate greed, whatever.
I recently bought a jigsaw made in Switzerland (Bosch) and several German-made tools (Festool). These are the cream of the crop. No American-made tool comes close to the quality of these tools.
I do agree that Chinese/Taiwanese-made tools often have problems. But, again, I do my homework (read the reviews in magazines and online) and test-drive the tools whenever possible. I don't pay a lot of attention to price, as I'm usually buying a "lifetime" tool. If it's made in the US, then great. If it's not, I don't care as long as it's a quality tool that enables me to do quality work.
Get off your soapbox guys. This is the kind of thinking that is killing Shopsmith!
TP
Period!
If they happen to be "made in USA," then great.
It used to be a given that if it was made in the USA, then it already was the very best available. That is no longer the case.
I don't really care who's fault it is (or was) -- unions, corporate greed, whatever.
I recently bought a jigsaw made in Switzerland (Bosch) and several German-made tools (Festool). These are the cream of the crop. No American-made tool comes close to the quality of these tools.
I do agree that Chinese/Taiwanese-made tools often have problems. But, again, I do my homework (read the reviews in magazines and online) and test-drive the tools whenever possible. I don't pay a lot of attention to price, as I'm usually buying a "lifetime" tool. If it's made in the US, then great. If it's not, I don't care as long as it's a quality tool that enables me to do quality work.
Get off your soapbox guys. This is the kind of thinking that is killing Shopsmith!
TP
Ed in Tampa wrote:The high school's position merely reflects society's position, if you do manual labor your beneath those that use only intellect. Think about it, we will gladly pay a CEO extreme amounts of money but balk at paying a lineman that climbs poles in the middle of a storm to restore power. Frankly I think anyone that climbs a pole in the middle of a storm to deal with 100's of volts so we can have power should be paid far and above any CEO. I also think farmers should be paid more for growing food than a guy that pushes paper around all day. I think a carpenter that builds homes for people should be paid more than some exec that buys companies and dismantles them for profit.
Somehow we have learned to place value not in things that are necessities but rather in things feed our ego's.
How does this all help SS? I don't think it does. But I think everyone of us better wake up and began teaching our children, our grandchildern and our neighbor kids what is important. Perhaps then "handcrafted" will mean more to future society than what it does today.
Ed