bobw1953 wrote:I was responding to several of the folks in the "Nostradamus" mode of predicting the end of the SS world due to perceived poor management.Sitting on the side lines thinking that Shopsmith can't price it right or deliver it right belies the fact that they have persisted in the consumer wood working tool business for many years, a testament to good management, good product, good product service.
Having been where they are making decisions that impact employees and customers negatively to keep the business afloat is neither for the timid or weak of will.
In this environment and in their market margins and cash flow are essential, and delivering new product innovations stresses both. It takes guts and vision to do this in uncertain times.
Ed in Tampa was the first of many comments in this thread that spawned my Opinion hope I haven't offended anyone, as it was certainly not my intent.
I think we are all both concerned and wish things were different while hoping they can 'stay the course' they have been on for decades. We are quite spoiled in our continuing expectations but also apprehensive that some day the bubble may burst.
We all perceive some actions that appear to be against our judgement of how things should be. There is nothing wrong with expressing those concerns, but they must be expressed and observed as an opinion far from the action.
Much as we would like to consider our investment in the company's produce as significant, the company has a far greater investment to be concerned with.
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
I once made custom designed, one-of-a-kind furniture for a living. We had a big shop (1000 SF +-) and it was outfitted with heavy, dedicated power tools. Good old names like Powermatic, Rockwell-Delta, Oliver and others. Lots of cast iron. After moving on in life I ultimately ended up here in front of a computer to make a living, but I've always kept my hand in. That's resulted in the purchase and use of miscellaneous cheap tools to use on a single project -- tools like those made by Ryobi. From SS's perspective there are two problems with Ryobi tools: They are dirt cheap and they kind of work. My hundred dollar Ryobi band saw has seen hours of use. It's not great by any means and has multiple limitations.
I've recently acquired a SS (a 1956 Greenie) that I'm whipping into shape. Along with it I got a bandsaw, jointer, belt sander, jig saw and a box full of accessories and literature (great stuff from the 50's). I did this because I live on and am fitting out a 60' steel trawler (boat, 50 net tons). What the SS offers -- even at this vintage -- is quality -- quality that is very close to those old stationary tools -- all fitting into a compact space. I can't wait to fire up the Magna bandsaw (once adjusted) and be able to make a straight cut with good tracking -- something the Ryobi resists mightily.
That's the prelude. Here's my conclusion: The Shopsmith is unique in that it is a quality tool and very versatile. It fits into places that a collection of equally capable stationary tools just won't go. Moreover, it allows messing around with things like a V sander built to be powered by it -- or just finding a "Flea". In other words, it's a platform that inspires ideas.
Selling a SS in today's market -- saturated by cheap but often functional Chinese tools -- is more of a challenge than it was in the last century. For awhile there the country seemed to lose any sense of national pride when it came to products and welcomed the flood of cheap imports with open arms. Witness Walmart. That may be changing. It's getting harder and harder to ignore the possibility of China becoming the dominant economic power in the world.
It seems to me that SS still has some relevant and timely selling points, however.
Quality. That doesn't mean much standing on its own (unfortunately -- the word has been beat to death), but if you put it into the context of generations -- with ample examples of Shopsmiths serving their 3rd generation of users -- it may mean something. Passing it down to your kids doesn't mean what it once did -- now that your kids are far more likely to end up living on the other side of the country. Quality, however, means something more these days -- it means less junk in landfills -- and less energy consumed to make more junk to replace it.
This goes hand in hand with the ongoing ability to repair and upgrade. Try getting parts for cheap Chinese made tools. It's not the fault of the tool makers, but the distribution network. I murdered a Ryobi miter saw by using it to cut steel with an abrasive blade -- it lasted longer than I thought. When I priced replacement parts to repair it I discovered that it made no sense -- the parts totaled just a few bucks less than buying another one.
This results in more junk into landfill (unless fully recycled) and the energy/raw materials used to produce another expendable (essentially non-repairable) tool.
Equally, you can't very well make the argument that a SS uses less power (unless the rumored new drive system is more efficient) but you can argue that it takes significantly less energy/raw materials to make a fully functional suite of tools the Shopsmith way. One stand, one drive system for the full suite. That -- combined with durability, continuity on the upgrade path and quality in use -- really does mean something from a "green" standpoint.
We must also remember the "shiny object" syndrome, which it's mostly men that fall victim to. The SS is just plain fun as a mechanical object. Unlike much of today's electronically based products it's also understandable -- you can see how it works. It's sort of a workshop Lego set, and properly presented lots of people might find that irresistible.
SS needs to take advantage of state of the art media. In addition to very good but longish online how-to videos, there needs to be one main Flash based video that pops on the main site window and -- complete with music -- shows fast changeovers and snippets of details in functionality. Sixty seconds or less, revealing how easy it is to mount every accessory (SPT) and do something enticingly tricky with it. I do this sort of Flash-based stuff. Heck, I'd probably do it for free for SS. SS has to do online what the demonstrators used to do out in the field -- prove the value of the product. We all know what that value is.
It's not just marketing, however -- it's also all about delivery these days. It has to be available, if not at the big box stores than online, and it has to come pretty quickly. We don't have much patience as consumers these days.
Since reading through this thread I've pondered whether or not SS can succeed in today's market -- and I think it can, even at the price, with the right marketing and the ability to deliver. There is a niche -- not just old farts but young people looking for something to do that doesn't involve a computer or smart phone. Making heirlooms in the basement is an idea that can be revived, I suspect, for a new generation ----- not to mention to oncoming onslaught of us boomers retiring.
robedney wrote:This is longish, but I got on a role:
I once made custom designed, one-of-a-kind furniture for a living. We had a big shop (1000 SF +-) and it was outfitted with heavy, dedicated power tools. Good old names like Powermatic, Rockwell-Delta, Oliver and others. Lots of cast iron. After moving on in life I ultimately ended up here in front of a computer to make a living, but I've always kept my hand in. That's resulted in the purchase and use of miscellaneous cheap tools to use on a single project -- tools like those made by Ryobi. From SS's perspective there are two problems with Ryobi tools: They are dirt cheap and they kind of work. My hundred dollar Ryobi band saw has seen hours of use. It's not great by any means and has multiple limitations.
I've recently acquired a SS (a 1956 Greenie) that I'm whipping into shape. Along with it I got a bandsaw, jointer, belt sander, jig saw and a box full of accessories and literature (great stuff from the 50's). I did this because I live on and am fitting out a 60' steel trawler (boat, 50 net tons). What the SS offers -- even at this vintage -- is quality -- quality that is very close to those old stationary tools -- all fitting into a compact space. I can't wait to fire up the Magna bandsaw (once adjusted) and be able to make a straight cut with good tracking -- something the Ryobi resists mightily.
That's the prelude. Here's my conclusion: The Shopsmith is unique in that it is a quality tool and very versatile. It fits into places that a collection of equally capable stationary tools just won't go. Moreover, it allows messing around with things like a V sander built to be powered by it -- or just finding a "Flea". In other words, it's a platform that inspires ideas.
Selling a SS in today's market -- saturated by cheap but often functional Chinese tools -- is more of a challenge than it was in the last century. For awhile there the country seemed to lose any sense of national pride when it came to products and welcomed the flood of cheap imports with open arms. Witness Walmart. That may be changing. It's getting harder and harder to ignore the possibility of China becoming the dominant economic power in the world.
It seems to me that SS still has some relevant and timely selling points, however.
Quality. That doesn't mean much standing on its own (unfortunately -- the word has been beat to death), but if you put it into the context of generations -- with ample examples of Shopsmiths serving their 3rd generation of users -- it may mean something. Passing it down to your kids doesn't mean what it once did -- now that your kids are far more likely to end up living on the other side of the country. Quality, however, means something more these days -- it means less junk in landfills -- and less energy consumed to make more junk to replace it.
This goes hand in hand with the ongoing ability to repair and upgrade. Try getting parts for cheap Chinese made tools. It's not the fault of the tool makers, but the distribution network. I murdered a Ryobi miter saw by using it to cut steel with an abrasive blade -- it lasted longer than I thought. When I priced replacement parts to repair it I discovered that it made no sense -- the parts totaled just a few bucks less than buying another one.
This results in more junk into landfill (unless fully recycled) and the energy/raw materials used to produce another expendable (essentially non-repairable) tool.
Equally, you can't very well make the argument that a SS uses less power (unless the rumored new drive system is more efficient) but you can argue that it takes significantly less energy/raw materials to make a fully functional suite of tools the Shopsmith way. One stand, one drive system for the full suite. That -- combined with durability, continuity on the upgrade path and quality in use -- really does mean something from a "green" standpoint.
We must also remember the "shiny object" syndrome, which it's mostly men that fall victim to. The SS is just plain fun as a mechanical object. Unlike much of today's electronically based products it's also understandable -- you can see how it works. It's sort of a workshop Lego set, and properly presented lots of people might find that irresistible.
SS needs to take advantage of state of the art media. In addition to very good but longish online how-to videos, there needs to be one main Flash based video that pops on the main site window and -- complete with music -- shows fast changeovers and snippets of details in functionality. Sixty seconds or less, revealing how easy it is to mount every accessory (SPT) and do something enticingly tricky with it. I do this sort of Flash-based stuff. Heck, I'd probably do it for free for SS. SS has to do online what the demonstrators used to do out in the field -- prove the value of the product. We all know what that value is.
It's not just marketing, however -- it's also all about delivery these days. It has to be available, if not at the big box stores than online, and it has to come pretty quickly. We don't have much patience as consumers these days.
Since reading through this thread I've pondered whether or not SS can succeed in today's market -- and I think it can, even at the price, with the right marketing and the ability to deliver. There is a niche -- not just old farts but young people looking for something to do that doesn't involve a computer or smart phone. Making heirlooms in the basement is an idea that can be revived, I suspect, for a new generation ----- not to mention to oncoming onslaught of us boomers retiring.
You offer an interesting perspective and one I hope Shopsmith is smart enough to consider. I'm not sure about all your conclusions but the ones I do agree with I think are excellent.
I'm not sure space is the issue it once was. Have a boat build a third garage, have a golf cart and a boat build a fourth bay garage. I don't live in a super up scale neighbor hood but a few of my neighbors have three car attached garages and four car unattached plus horse barns to cover all their activities. They think I'm nuts confining myself to my two garage. They simply can't understand why I don't build a third or fourth bay onto it. My wife agrees with them.
I especially like your connection with shiney. It is true most fishing lures today catch more fishermen than they ever catch fish. If it is shiney and has lots of bells and whisles sign me up.
Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
easterngray wrote:JPG - Come on now - don't leave us hanging! This is, after all, the "forum of the faithful"! What have you heard? Alec
If nothing happens tomorrow, I will tell why the 'heads up'. It will mean another mis-leading(or best guess) 'estimate' from CS.
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╟JPG ╢
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
