Older 510 main table not aligned to new table extensions?

cobalt60 · Post by **cobalt60** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:30 pm

so, I'll check with SS on the rails tomorrow, and post results.

Sorry to keep firing off the questions, and I hope I'm not overstaying my welcome, but one more quick one:

My 500 side extension table down-tubes bolt straight into the threaded holes.
[ATTACH]11527[/ATTACH]

But, well, these holes are not threaded.
[ATTACH]11528[/ATTACH]

Should I ask someone local to tap those holes? Or is there a part I can order to fit these down-tubes? Or should I just leave good enough alone, have a beer, and go to bed early?

EDIT: Hey pennview, I may have said it a few times, but for clarity, I also have basically NO play using the four inside bolts on each floating table. The only wiggle room is with those bolts all tight, and the thumbscrews loose. In that case, my main table allows the extension tube to "jiggle," but the extension tables have very little of that "jiggle." So in my semi-success post, I hold the floating table up against the main table while tightening the thumbscrews.

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:08 am

I doubt ss has main table rails to match the floating table rails. More likely they will have floating/aux table rails to match the main table one you have. That would give you the less desirable(newer) 'set'!:( You may be talking to the wall on this subject!

The floating tables do not have a need for the support post, therefore the holes are not tapped. The holes can be tapped, but a stud rather than the bolt allows greater flexibility to adjust the table alignment.

cobalt60 · Post by **cobalt60** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:02 am

Yeah, getting tubes that match what I've got is my worry, so I'll try to be clear when I speak to them on the phone. If returning them could be a problem, I might hold off. Maybe in that case, I could figure out a way to run a shim through the bottom of the main table tube (using, like, foil tape or something?).

Thanks for the heads-up on the stud option -- I'll ask about that tomorrow, too! And BIG thanks for yours, dusty's and everyone's input so far. I'll keep you all up on this progress and some other SS projects I have in mind

Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:07 am

Cobol60 you answered you own question when you said the connector tube laid on the bottom inside of the main table fence tube but on the aux tables fence tubes sat on the top of the connector tube. That will make the table heights off the amount of play that is between the connector tube and fence tube.

The kurled nuts that lock the connector tube into the fence tube comes in from the side therefore they don't take out any of the play.

On the 520 the locking studs come up from the bottom so the connector tube is forced to the top of the inside of the main table as well as the top inside of the aux tables. Thus the the difference is forced out of the equation.

I guarantee you that you can make you 510 perfectly in the same plane but change the set up and see for yourself you will have to mess around getting them back into plane. Once you get them into plane use the SS and again you will see the tables will have slipped out of perfect alignment.

It has to happen because gravity make the connector tube sit on the bottom inside surface of the table fence tube and makes the aux table fence tubes top inside surface sit on the connector tube. And there is nothing on the 510 to overcome this easily. The minute you swap the aux tables Left to right and right to left you are back out of alignment. Or when you put both on the same side of main table.

It has to happen as long as there enough play in the fence tube to allow the connector tube to slide into and there is no adjust to take out this play.

dasgud · Post by **dasgud** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:16 am

Ed in Tampa wrote:The kurled nuts that lock the connector tube into the fence tube comes in from the side therefore they don't take out any of the play.

On the 520 the locking studs come up from the bottom so the connector tube is forced to the top of the inside of the main table as well as the top inside of the aux tables. Thus the the difference is forced out of the equation.

So Ed, if I'm reading this correctly then if holes were tapped in the bottom of the table tubes that would fix the unmatching surfaces? Or perhaps a set of wedges inserted in the tubes at the bottom to raise the floating bars to the top which can then be screw locked in?
Cobalt60, if you don't mind experimenting (I'm unsure of how much you have experimented already), you can try to build something with the table set up as it is now to see how unacceptable the results are. I think that even if the floating table is a full 1/32" of an inch lower, any gap produced can be worked out quickly. You may be pleasantly surprised if there is no noticeable gap at all.
These are just some thoughts I had because this thread interested me. I hope you will fix everything to your satisfaction.

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:00 am

With reference to post #21 (this thread), it need not be the way you have shown.

To solve a similar problem, this has been done by several members of the forum.

[ATTACH]11531[/ATTACH]
Remove this stud and put it in the coffee can with all the others

[ATTACH]11532[/ATTACH]
Replace that bolt with this set of parts.

By using threaded rod or longer bolts with the head cut off, you gain an independently adjustable extension table; adjustable in all planes.

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:16 am

dasgud wrote:So Ed, if I'm reading this correctly then if holes were tapped in the bottom of the table tubes that would fix the unmatching surfaces? Or perhaps a set of wedges inserted in the tubes at the bottom to raise the floating bars to the top which can then be screw locked in?
Cobalt60, if you don't mind experimenting (I'm unsure of how much you have experimented already), you can try to build something with the table set up as it is now to see how unacceptable the results are. I think that even if the floating table is a full 1/32" of an inch lower, any gap produced can be worked out quickly. You may be pleasantly surprised if there is no noticeable gap at all.
These are just some thoughts I had because this thread interested me. I hope you will fix everything to your satisfaction.

The mounting holes to top of table dimension is consistent regardless of what size rails.

With differing wall thicknesses, the top of the rails(inside) to table top varies.

Although clamping(thumbscrews etc.) from below would eliminate the 'slipping', it would not compensate for the vertical dimensional variation.

Another thing not included in the discussion above is the tube deflection(bending) and or 'out of round'.

Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:34 am

dasgud wrote:So Ed, if I'm reading this correctly then if holes were tapped in the bottom of the table tubes that would fix the unmatching surfaces? Or perhaps a set of wedges inserted in the tubes at the bottom to raise the floating bars to the top which can then be screw locked in?
Cobalt60, if you don't mind experimenting (I'm unsure of how much you have experimented already), you can try to build something with the table set up as it is now to see how unacceptable the results are. I think that even if the floating table is a full 1/32" of an inch lower, any gap produced can be worked out quickly. You may be pleasantly surprised if there is no noticeable gap at all.
These are just some thoughts I had because this thread interested me. I hope you will fix everything to your satisfaction.

The wedges would work.
They would force the connector tube against top inside of the main table fence rail and the aux table fence rail. Then if the fence rails were exactly the same distance for the surface of their respective tables everything would be in alignment. This is exactly what the 520 does.

There is an additional problem though. The Knurled nut (jackscrew Part 145) that tightens the table to connector tube comes in from the side. If the screw hits the connector tube at the apex of the curve of the tube it is locked in place. But in many cases this stud hits the connector tube above or below the apex. As you can imagine as it tightened it would wedge the connector tube up or down. If this occurs on the floating table instead of the tube moving the table goes up or down.

Believe me I played with this over and over for years. The best I could do was after I insured my fence tubes were exactly the same height in relation to the table surface when I inserted a the tube in the main table I held it pressed against the top of the fence tube and tightened the locking jackscrew. Now the connector tube was locked up against the inside of the main table fence tube. Then when I installed a floating table I pressed down on the table forcing it's fence tube against the top of the connector tube and I tightened the jackscrew. If I did this consistantly everytime the table tops were aligned. However I found that during use, vibration and probably me pressing down on the tables holding the wood in place the connector tube would slip and ended up pressing against the bottom of the main table fence tube instead of the top. The jackscrew that was suppose to hold it didn't have enough bite to hold it. I even went to the point of damaging connector tubes by tightening the jackscrew so tight.

One thing I didn't try.
With the connector tube lying in the main table fence tube so it was pressed against the bottom inside surface of that tube. Then adjusting the aux table so that when their fence tube sat on the connector tube their table surface was level with the main. That way gravity would never be able to change their plane.

The problem then would be when you tighten the jackscrew did it lift or force the connector tube lower. If not then you might be able to accomplish having the tables in the same plane for that setup but my guess is switching the tables would mess up the setup.

Anyway the 520 overcomes ALL of these problems and if it is driving you crazy upgrade to the 520 and try to keep a smile on your face.

cobalt60 · Post by **cobalt60** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:47 am

Double update for tonight:

1) dusty, I didn't quite understand your suggestion on the down-tube setup. Not sure if I was clear, but all the holes in the bottoms of my floating tables are un-threaded. Maybe your bolts are unthreaded on top?

Anyway, I went ahead and tapped the holes, and I'm happy I did. Pretty easy down-tube installation:

[ATTACH]11561[/ATTACH]

Oh yeah, got some different bolts that seemed more "SS appropriate" to me.
[ATTACH]11562[/ATTACH]

cobalt60 · Post by **cobalt60** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:23 am

2) I'm not willing to give up on the quest for reasonably even-height tables. I was thinking along the lines of the wedge or shim idea mentioned here. Wandering around the hardware store, I found some tape made of metal... seems promising.

[ATTACH]11563[/ATTACH]

I figured I'd just wrap until the OD is fattened up enough to be snug in the main table. Problem is, there's some metal imperfections inside the tube, around the edge of the thumbscrew hole. This was TOO snug, and ended up tearing up and jamming the metal tape.

Plan B: more like the wedge idea, I figure the shim only needs to be in the direction of the problem.

[ATTACH]11564[/ATTACH]

So here's a bunch of very thin, sticky metal shims, right?

[ATTACH]11565[/ATTACH]

After a few, I start test fitting it every couple strips. It takes 10 for a pretty good fit, 12 for snug.

Needs some fine tuning, but I don't see any immediate problems with this. Tables are all level without fiddling with the thumbscrews. Loose or tight, the z-axis needs no by-hand adjustment. I don't like the idea of the thumbscrews maintaining the z-axis position -- they're clearly not made for that, and I can't imagine them being good at it.

[ATTACH]11566[/ATTACH]

Well, it's close, at least, and I think I can get it perfect with this method. Other than the pipe now having an artificial top and bottom, and the less rugged surface of the tape, does anyone see any problems with this plan?

Thanks again for the help and encouragement everyone!