Shopsmith Forums

I don't think anyone can deny that the sawstop protects you from you just placed your finger on the crosscut sled and cut it off type accidents.

My question is how frequent does that type of accident really happen versus the hand was slammed into the blade or the damage was done from kickback.

My other question is, is the operator more or less prone to make saw technique mistakes because he is less fearful of serious injury do to the technology.

My last question since I personally would never consider buying a saw over the cost of say $600 what is the REAL cost of adding this technology to a $300-$600 machine? I know Sawstop has machines priced much higher but I simply would not pay that price for them. Could this techology be put on a machine that is sold in Big Box stores?

I think these are the real questions about the technology that never seemed to get answered. Gass has made all kinds of statements about how safe and inexpensive the technology could be, but what is always quoted is the number of accidents from tablesaws (this could include you split you head open bending over and standing up under it) and their estimates on cost always pales in the light of the cost of their actual machine.

Not knocking the technology or the desire for it. Just the manner demonstrated. I remember the video a while back demonstrating kickback.

How about throwing some meat on top of the spinning blade simulating a hand contacting the top of an unguarded blade as can happen during a violent kick back that rips the wood out of your hand.

Again, just sayin'.

Unless I win the lottery, I probably will never be the owner of a swastop saw or one equipped with flesh detecting technology. I use a 57 year old shopsmith and see no reason to stop using that. So all of the discussion regarding CPSC, Flesh detecting technology, SawStop, Gass, etc. is rather academic for me personally.

I hope the whirlwind guys find a manufacturer, (Personally, I doubt they will until this whole CPSC regulation thing gets sorted out) it looks like promising technology and it would be nice to retrofit my almost 60 year old saw with some 21st century technology. I hope the CPSC exercises restraint and good judgement in determinig what regulations if any are put in place regarding flesh detecting technology. I wish Mr. Gass and his company all the best. Saw Stop does make a fine table saw, if a bit expensive. I hope that the PTI comes to their senses and stops resisting such safety improvements but they won't until the CPSC says You Must.

Just sayin!!

Ed in Tampa wrote:I don't think anyone can deny that the sawstop protects you from you just placed your finger on the crosscut sled and cut it off type accidents.

My question is how frequent does that type of accident really happen versus the hand was slammed into the blade or the damage was done from kickback.

A study was done by physicians of non-occupational table saw injuries.The abstract can be read here. http://mobile.journals.lww.com/jtrauma/ ... icle=00067
You need to buy the full article. Long and short of it is the following conclusion: " Most table saw-related injuries result from contact with the saw blade."

I highly praise David Butler's approach with the Whirlwind as he not jamming it down the throat of manufacturers or as a government mandate. He's semi-retired (and an accomplished woodworker!), exploring investors and presenting the product in a free thinking society.

Two different approcahes to solve potential accidents but Gass with his Sawstop makes me see another who thinks his patent should be the rule, forcing it upon us and not AS AN OPTION. Thats the big difference.

After the blood and dust settles, at the very least I would hope the law stays out of my private workshop.

I live in a state (Land of Obama) where they can ticket anyone in a vehicle (driver to back seat passenger) without wearing a seatbelt BUT idiots can ride a motorcycle legally without a helmet, a pair of shorts, no shirt, tennis shoes, without glasses (YES indeed - but if without glasses must have a windscreen). Talk about lawmakers who have half a brain debating about new saw blade safety device invention should be mandatory! Thats scarier then just a little digit zinged off. Laugh and soon Obama Care will help those.

brad_nalor wrote:Talk about lawmakers who have half a brain debating about new saw blade safety device invention should be mandatory!

For educational purposes and my opinion only - The CPSC is NOT a body of elected officials. They are appointed and are not "Lawmakers". CPSC does not make law, they make regulations according to law. Personally I'm glad they are there and they have many many success stories and a proven track record for protecting the citizens of our country form companies that would rather not go to the expense of ensuring consumer safety to improve their profits. I have more faith in the CPSC/Government watching out for my safety than I do product manufacturers.

No lead in paint - BETTER
No lead in products designed for children - BETTER
Seat belts required - BETTER
Safety glass in wind shields - BETTER
The list of their successes goes on and on.

If lawmakers (congress) had to decide on whether or not flesh detecting technology was required, I would not be concerned at all with the debate. I seriously doubt it would ever make it to floor for a vote as I doubt either the PTI or Gass have enough money/political clout to sway a congressman/senator.

The CPSC is headed by commissioners nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate for seven year terms. The CPSC has the authority to regulate the sale and manufacture of products. I would technically call them lawmakers.

Some like a nanny state and some don't.

Technically it's regulation not law. Not that it makes any significant difference. In this day in age you are either at the mercy of the government or at the mercy of the manufacturers and their trade associations and the usually self serving standards that they create through things like Underwriters' Lab (UL). CPSC isn't even allowed to pass a regulation unless it determines the industry hasn't passed an effective "voluntary" standard. Note that I put quotation marks around voluntary because it is only voluntary to the industry. Once the industry passes a voluntary standard it becomes mandatory to you and me in the sense that you will have to buy the technology whether you want it or not. So the choice is whether you want the "nanny" to be the government ( which at least you get a say in) or the manufacturers. Personally I prefer not to have the fox guarding the hen house.

and completely unregulated markets have proven to be sooo beneficial throughout history! All due sarcasm intended.

algale wrote:A study was done by physicians of non-occupational table saw injuries.The abstract can be read here. http://mobile.journals.lww.com/jtrauma/ ... icle=00067
You need to buy the full article. Long and short of it is the following conclusion: " Most table saw-related injuries result from contact with the saw blade."

Interestingly the report did not report on the percentage of injuries related to direct contact with the blade. Amputations which I would assume to be blade contact amounted to only 10% of the injuries. Of course there was a laceration group but it did not specify whether these were all blade contacts or not.

I think contact with a Sawstop blade will produce a laceration type injury so again I don't think this report is much help in determining how many people are actually hurt from feeding their body part into the blade.

Again I cite my neighbor who was seriously injuried by his saw. His thumb was nearly ripped in half lengthwise yet we are almost positive it was not cut by the blade. He is wondering if somehow his thumb got between the table and side of the blade and was torn open. If this was the case I would imagine having the blade slamming into the saw would have even caused more damage.

Fact is my neighbor was doing everything right and the last he remembers his fingers were all out of the red zone. There was a horrendous unexplained kickback and after it was all over the neighbor looked at his thumb and it was split open from the tip to about half way to the second joint. But the cut was more a tear than a saw cut and there was no blood to be found anywhere except 6 inches from the saw.

From looking at the everything it is my guess what he was cutting got pulled between the table and the side of the blade, (he was cutting a very narrow piece without a zero clearance insert. When that happened either the flying wood hit is thumb hard enough to split it open or as my neighbor guesses his thumb got pulled between the side of the blade and the table.

In any case his injury would be reported as a laceration by a table saw.

terrydowning wrote:
How about throwing some meat on top of the spinning blade simulating a hand contacting the top of an unguarded blade as can happen during a violent kick back that rips the wood out of your hand.

I read about this real world incidentover on the Lumberjocks forum. I would guess this is about as real as you can get.