New prices 4/30/12

[holsgo]

The problems we've got are far beyond just gas. Most of you are old enough to remember when we were a real powerhouse in everything, from manufacturing to the value of our dollar. Now we can't even control who gets in here, how much debt we are in, energy issues...everything.
Shopsmiths prices are a bit much. Just my opinion. But china, the economy and more immigrants than jobs are just the tip of even bigger problems. Just my rant. I'm done now.

[Ed in Tampa]

You guys are looking too closely at Shopsmith prices and not closely enough at overall prices all around the planet...
I have been doing some extra shopping and pricing stuff at farm stores and lumber yards this month and I am here to tell you that all sorts of prices are jumping up. A large part of it is driven by China demands and European economic problems. Those that think that "anybody" in the US can just "do something" that will make it all go away are living in their own little world of delusion....

I still say the problem is our own making. We (past and present generations) have gotten the idea we should be able to get richer by just doing our job.
I don't care what anyone says pay increases drive up prices it can not be avoided. Increasing labor cost will eventually force any manufacturer to look for lower labor costs. If he finds it out of the country that is where he is going.

At one time this country enjoyed low labor cost items coming into this country. It kept prices down and we were able to buy things cheap. But those countries just like us wanted to get ahead and they demanded higher pay. Now their products are costing us more and we are complaining.

Notice I used a term we often hear "getting ahead". There are number of ways to get ahead. One develop and manufacture a product. Two increase production while reducing costs.

There is also a fabled way of getting ahead. Demanding pay increases without increasing production.

This country is suffering and will continue to suffer the consequences of increasing labor costs without increasing production.

We always like the concept of making more money. We love to tell where we once made $1 an hour and now we make $100 an hour.

My question is who is better off the guy that made $1 an hour and paying $0.05 for a loaf of bread or the guy that is now making $20 an hour but paying $3.00 for a loaf of bread?

Today's thinking is what caused our housing crisis that we are still trying to get out of. The thinking that a home should simply increase in value. Why should it increase in value? It should be the only way a house increases in value is because of improvements or something that adds value. Not just the fact that house prices are going up artificially. Think I'm wrong then tell my why if the house was worth $400,000 in 2008 it can't be sold today for $250,000 The house was never lived it so there is nothing that has changed except its artificial value.

[Ed in Tampa]

Let me say one more thing, then I will be quiet. (fat chance on that happening )

The day we adopted the concept of "sticking it to the man." is when this country started it's down hill slide.

Today the concept of getting your hands dirty from honest work is looked at with distain. Somewhere the idea developed that if you have hands made dirty from honest work you must be of a weak of mind or just a failure.

Our kids are taught that they want to become people that get rich not by working harder but by working smarter. A lie manufactured in lazinessl and perfected in the USA. And now we reap the rewards of that lie.

Think I'm wrong look at how many of our kids live. They will walk around a piece of paper lying on the floor rather than to stop, pick it up and throw it away. Ain't their job! That is the thinking that has premeated our work force.

When I worked in the corporate world, early on, if we had a job opening with two equally qualified candidates for the job we would often decide the one for promotion by placing a piece of paper on the floor and watching to see which one would stop and pick it up. (took pride in his workplace). As I was leaving the corporate world we could no longer do this. It seemed everyone had adopted the philosophy of "ain't my job." and would walk around it.

[holsgo]

Yup, you've got it right. We've got kids who don't even work. No jobs as teenagers? You've got to be kidding me. But parents allow it. They allow these kids to not earn money, manage that money and then have real world education for when they hit the real world. But no, it's beneath the parents. These parents are crazy...and this kind of kid is what shows up to interviews with me asking for 60k per year fresh out of school...with no experience.
These same parents get in their kids teachers face when the kid gets bad grades instead of dealing with the kid. This used to be the opposite.
We've got huge problems I agree.

[terrydowning]

It seemed everyone had adopted the philosophy of "ain't my job."

I blame the labor unions for much of this.

In many plants, an individual is simply not allowed to pick up paper on the floor because that is some other union guys job and if he does pick up the paper he's looking down the barrel of a union grievance. When a union carpenter can't (and often won't) plug in his saw or turn on a light because the union contract says a certified union electrician has to do it, we as a society have problems.

Whatever happened to "Get the Job Done?"

[dusty]

I blame the labor unions for much of this.

In many plants, an individual is simply not allowed to pick up paper on the floor because that is some other union guys job and if he does pick up the paper he's looking down the barrel of a union grievance. When a union carpenter can't (and often won't) plug in his saw or turn on a light because the union contract says a certified union electrician has to do it, we as a society have problems.

Whatever happened to "Get the Job Done?"

I'd go along with blaming the union except for a couple issues. First off that carpenter and electrician chose to become union members. They and all of their partners in the union must share some blame. Secondly, how are union rules established? Are they not the result of vote of the membership.

I have never been a union member having spent my entire working life either in the military or working for one of four different defense contractors. While we had carpenters, electricians, plumbers, etc they were all very willing to allow us to infringe on their job description if we wanted to.

If we are looking for what's to blame...I can't help but believe that GREED gets into this game somewhere.

[pennview]

U.S. oil production has indeed moved upward somewhat in the past few years after a steady decline. But current production in no way approaches peak crude oil production in the U.S. The current increase is directly related to the oil boom in North Dakota.

What Obama doesn't say when he talks about the up tick in oil productions is that production on federal land is down and that permits for drilling on federal land are down by about 50 percent since he took office . Obama also likes to talk about "proven" oil reserves of 21 trillion barrels, which has to do with how much oil is in the ground where oil is already being drilled and pumped. But there are estimates of "recoverable" oil reserves that are near 10 times the "proven" reserves amount, and then there is all that oil bound up in sand and shale in the Rockies that makes Saudi Arabia's reserves look like small potatoes.

What we ought to be doing is drilling off the east and west coasts and in ANWR (Artic National Wildlife Refuge) and, in addition to algae biofuel research, we ought to be "investing" in exploitation of shale oil. The trouble is that there is one political party in this country that doesn't understand that we are dependent on fossil fuels and will be for a very long time.

[Ed in Tampa]

U.S. oil production has indeed moved upward somewhat in the past few years after a steady decline. But current production in no way approaches peak crude oil production in the U.S. The current increase is directly related to the oil boom in North Dakota.

What Obama doesn't say when he talks about the up tick in oil productions is that production on federal land is down and that permits for drilling on federal land are down by about 50 percent since he took office . Obama also likes to talk about "proven" oil reserves of 21 trillion barrels, which has to do with how much oil is in the ground where oil is already being drilled and pumped. But there are estimates of "recoverable" oil reserves that are near 10 times the "proven" reserves amount, and then there is all that oil bound up in sand and shale in the Rockies that makes Saudi Arabia's reserves look like small potatoes.

What we ought to be doing is drilling off the east and west coasts and in ANWR (Artic National Wildlife Refuge) and, in addition to algae biofuel research, we ought to be "investing" in exploitation of shale oil. The trouble is that there is one political party in this country that doesn't understand that we are dependent on fossil fuels and will be for a very long time.

I agree an retired oil company exec attends our church. I believe this guy.

He tells me we have more found oil in this country than all the found oil in the world. And he suspects(years and years of experience) that there is almost that same amount of unfound oil in this country. That my friends is a lot of oil.

[algale]

What Obama doesn't say when he talks about the up tick in oil productions is that production on federal land is down and that permits for drilling on federal land are down by about 50 percent since he took office .

The statitistics don't support a 50% drop off claim for permits on federal lands. I found the stats from the Bureau of Land Management here http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/ ... able08.pdf

The data only go back to 1988, but for each of 2009-2011 (2012 ain't up yet) the Obama administration actually approved more permits to drill on federal land than in any year under any administration, Democrat or Republican, including 1988 (Reagan's last year), all of Geroge H.W. Bush's years, all of Clinton's years and the first three years under George W. Bush. Permits took off in 2004 under George W. Bush, went back down in 2005 under W., and then rebounded in 2006, 2007 and 2008.

The peak year under George W. Bush was 7124 permits in 2007. The lowest number allowed by Obama to date is 4090 in 2010. So not a 50% drop off even comparing the highest year under Bush to the lowest year under Obama. And Obama's low (4090) was still more than Bush allowed in 2001, 2002 and 2003.

What any of this proves, I don't know. Oil prices are not set only by supply and demand economics. Speculation in the oil futures market plays a rather significant roll in determining prices at the pump.

[robinson46176]

This is my last post on this thread that is supposed to be about Shopsmith prices.
It always saddens me when I see the selfish approach espoused that says (even between the lines) that just because we have a resource available that somehow it is imperitive that we jump in and plunder it all we can... There are better answers and we are finding them but backwards looking closed minds can only drag their feet and want to go back to what was. BTW, in my opinion (which in spite of what many of you may think is as valid as yours) nuclear is one of the worst of those options... Greed will always cause short cuts and failures. Go back and read up on Indiana's Ohio river nuclear power plants that were never finished because of contractor short cuts that created weak structures. California supposedly has one sitting on a fault line and we all saw what a good idea the one in Japan was.
I am a political independent who picks and chooses my own way regardless of the rhetoric of either side. I refuse to be drawn into any discussion of party politics and frankly I don't want to even know your party opinions. I am dreading the months ahead of the election because everywhere there are those few that simply do not have enough self control to not push their party politics on everybody (both sides). I would hope that everybody would be grown up enough to think for a minute and say to them selves "OK, this just isn't the place for this"... Probably not going to happen. I own a bunch of email discussion groups and every election I end up booting a bunch of people that want to function like 6th graders and have no ability to control themselves.
If the administrator is wise he will buckle down on political post and nip them in the bud. They NEVER add anything valid to a discussion group, NEVER... I have never seen any email group or forum ever improved by people discussing politics or religion, ever... There are places for such discussions but this is not it. I don't know why anyone would think is.
Please do not PM me to express your opinion, it will not be read.

One last thing here. If you listen to people for the last 10,000 years it would seem that the world has been going to hell in a handbasket ever since one generation became older than the last one. That isn't really the case.
A good older friend of mine once spoke of "the good old days". His father's exact words were "I lived through the good old days, and they were not worth shit"...

Now can't we just talk Shopsmiths and hobbies or do I need to find another pasture to graze.


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