Shopsmith Forums

Ed in Tampa wrote:In my opinion the upgrade to the 520 is a lot more than a Pro fence.

The way the connection tubes interact with tables is where I see the biggest improvement.

With the 510 the tightener to the connector tubes came from the side and the table could be aligned exactly centered, too high or too low. It changed depending on how you held the table and connector tube.

This misalignment cost me two ruined projects. It frustrated the ever loving crap out of me!!!!!!! I hated it!!!!!!! And to me it made an excellent machine the 500 a piece of junk.

I hated it so much that I stopped using my Shopsmith altogether. Would have sold it to the first person that offered me more than $1. It sat unused for nearly 15 years. I actually rented time on other machines to accomplish what I wanted and was actively seeking to replace it with stationary machines. At about this time my SIL bought a Unisaw so I just shifted to it.

Then I saw the 520 the connector tube tightener comes up from the bottom. The table is always pushed down the tube always up. It never changes. Once properly setup the table always are exactly lined up. Perfectly.

That made me fall in love all over again with my Shopsmith.

As for the Pro fence I actually liked the 510 better but I will admit adjusting the pro fence is far easier.

My opinion the 510 upgrade was ill conceived, ill executed and should never have been built. I believe it did more damage to Shopsmith than anything else Shopsmith ever did.

Had I never owned a 500 or 520 I would be first to declare Shopsmith made only junk, that is how bad I view the 510.

Don't get rid of your track saw, it is far superior to anything when cutting down sheet stock or squaring an edge. Only competition I know for it is a high end panel saw or big buck CNC machine. It would cost a least $30,000+ to get the quality of cut and accuracy of a Festool or Eurekazone track saw.

Ed,

I'm a huge fan of the Eurekazone products. I have a couple dozen feet of track (bought a bunch of track plus other extrusions during their pre-move sale), B300 bridge, SSRK, UEG (the only component I've been less than thrilled with), and RipSizer (the successor to the UEG).

I also have a decent sized CNC router. And an almost 24x36" (600x900mm) laser engraver.

Thanks for your thoughts on the 510 vs 520 table connections. I'll definitely keep that in the mind as I start using it. I can definitely see how that could be a problem, and was actually wondering about it as I was putting the table back together following its move.

At this point, I don't know how much I will use connected tables, especially needing to be dead flat. One of the main reasons I'm looking at it for tablesaw purposes is that I might explore segmented turning, which needs lots of little but precisely angled pieces. I'm not sure I could get the high precision I need using the tracksaw, more from vertical issues and blade flex. While the CNC could do it, it would take longer than doing on the SS plus the CNC might throw the little pieces as well as using more wood.

dusty wrote:I am still running a 510, Ed, and I need to better understand how the 510 rails interacted with the 510 extension tubes to cause you these problems.

I already understand that if you have a mixed vintage of rails and extension tubes (505, 510) that you may have trouble achieving and/or maintaining table alignment. There has been at least one thread on that subject matter.

If I understand correctly though, your issue is slightly different. You seem to have had problems that you believe were caused by the extension tubes not aligning consistently within the rails. Is that an accurate assessment?

Rhetorical question: How great were the errors? You said that projects were ruined as a result of this. What were you building?

Aaah, I just reread the thread. Was your discontent brought about by a 500 (Goldie or Greenie) or by a 505/510?

Roy, I stand behind my original comments regarding the 510 vs the 520 rail and fence systems. I believe that equally precise work can be done on both and that the effort to achieve that precision is comparable between the two. To chose one over the other is, IMO, a financial decision and not one of technical comparability.

Dusty
Actually I don't have a mix of connector tubes. I bought my Mark 5 model 500 in the eighties. It was a grey model.
I then ordered the 510 upgrade kit.

The problem in my humble opinion with the connector tube is how they are tightened to the table fence rails or tubes. The thumb screw comes in from the side and I found that my floating table would be in one of three conditions. Perfectly in plane. Lower because the tube was at the bottom of the on main table and at the top on the floating table. Or higher. In my case the difference was as much as 1/4 inch

On one project I was sanding a big piece of wood to have a round curve and as I swing it over joint between the floating table and main the wood caught the raised floating table and stuck. Before I could react there was a flat ground into the piece. The project had such close tolerance I could not live with the flat and had to redo the project. It was a glued up piece that I had spent weeks on and was now useless. I actually still have it laying around in the shop.

I was cutting the headboard and footboard for a cradle using costly figured cherry. The offset in the table lifted the board so that when edge glued the joint was tight on one side and open on the other. After two tries figuring the first cut must have had debris on the table I figured it out but by then the boards were ruined (too narrow) Correction would bring cut into previously cut border.

If you look at the main table the connector slides into the fence rail and the thumb screw secures it. If the tube is exactly centered the thumb screw hits the apex of the tube and will move (that is another story). If it is low the connector tube is pushed up against the top of the fence tube if it is high the connector tube is push down to the bottom of the fence tube/rail.

The same happens on the floating table. Plus it can be high on back and low on the front.

On the 520 the tube slide into a extrusion but the thumb screw comes up from the bottom. So the connector tube is always pushed against the top of the extrusion in all tables. If the extrusions are in plane the table will always be in plane. Far superior method.

Bud,

You're doing some nice work. I have a couple more largeish projects, then I'd like to do a nice entertainment center platform, something like yours.

I hadn't thought of trying to span the gaps as you mention. Another thing to keep in mind.

Ed in Tampa wrote:Dusty
Actually I don't have a mix of connector tubes. I bought my Mark 5 model 500 in the eighties. It was a grey model.
I then ordered the 510 upgrade kit.

The problem in my humble opinion with the connector tube is how they are tightened to the table fence rails or tubes. The thumb screw comes in from the side and I found that my floating table would be in one of three conditions. Perfectly in plane. Lower because the tube was at the bottom of the on main table and at the top on the floating table. Or higher. In my case the difference was as much as 1/4 inch

On one project I was sanding a big piece of wood to have a round curve and as I swing it over joint between the floating table and main the wood caught the raised floating table and stuck. Before I could react there was a flat ground into the piece. The project had such close tolerance I could not live with the flat and had to redo the project. It was a glued up piece that I had spent weeks on and was now useless. I actually still have it laying around in the shop.

I was cutting the headboard and footboard for a cradle using costly figured cherry. The offset in the table lifted the board so that when edge glued the joint was tight on one side and open on the other. After two tries figuring the first cut must have had debris on the table I figured it out but by then the boards were ruined (too narrow) Correction would bring cut into previously cut border.

If you look at the main table the connector slides into the fence rail and the thumb screw secures it. If the tube is exactly centered the thumb screw hits the apex of the tube and will move (that is another story). If it is low the connector tube is pushed up against the top of the fence tube if it is high the connector tube is push down to the bottom of the fence tube/rail.

The same happens on the floating table. Plus it can be high on back and low on the front.

On the 520 the tube slide into a extrusion but the thumb screw comes up from the bottom. So the connector tube is always pushed against the top of the extrusion in all tables. If the extrusions are in plane the table will always be in plane. Far superior method.

I have highjacked this thread.

Furthermore, it was done with no real justification. I can not explain what you have observed. I understand your hypothesis but I can not replicate. We are at a dead end.

I apologize to Roy for this forced departure.

roy_okc wrote:Ed,

I'm a huge fan of the Eurekazone products. I have a couple dozen feet of track (bought a bunch of track plus other extrusions during their pre-move sale), B300 bridge, SSRK, UEG (the only component I've been less than thrilled with), and RipSizer (the successor to the UEG).

I also have a decent sized CNC router. And an almost 24x36" (600x900mm) laser engraver.

Thanks for your thoughts on the 510 vs 520 table connections. I'll definitely keep that in the mind as I start using it. I can definitely see how that could be a problem, and was actually wondering about it as I was putting the table back together following its move.

At this point, I don't know how much I will use connected tables, especially needing to be dead flat. One of the main reasons I'm looking at it for tablesaw purposes is that I might explore segmented turning, which needs lots of little but precisely angled pieces. I'm not sure I could get the high precision I need using the tracksaw, more from vertical issues and blade flex. While the CNC could do it, it would take longer than doing on the SS plus the CNC might throw the little pieces as well as using more wood.

It sounds to me like you are set just the way you are. The table connection problem made me crazy. At the time I felt I was sold a bill of goods instead of a actual remedy for the small table size of the model 500.

As I said I saw it as ill conceived and ill executed and if I may add a very costly (to the customer) attempt to solve the problem. The 520 in my opinion is far superior, well executed and in fact resolves the problem.
I'm of the opinion Shopsmith should not offer the 510 in any shape or form.

If you have the track system you will not need to mess much with connectors and tables and the SS 510 should serve you well.
Good luck with your turning.

Ed in Tampa wrote:...I'm of the opinion Shopsmith should not offer the 510 in any shape or form...

I've heard you say this a few times over the years. And as a happy 510 owner I've tried to reconcile my experience with yours. I'm not the woodworker many here are, and maybe I just don't know any better.

Then it hit me: I never use floating tables. I use the main table and sometimes the extension table that mounts directly into the end of the Shopsmith. But never anything in between. I might connect the two tables for added rigidity, but I never float a table. Does that explain why I've been happy?

davebodner wrote:I've heard you say this a few times over the years. And as a happy 510 owner I've tried to reconcile my experience with yours. I'm not the woodworker many here are, and maybe I just don't know any better.

Then it hit me: I never use floating tables. I use the main table and sometimes the extension table that mounts directly into the end of the Shopsmith. But never anything in between. I might connect the two tables for added rigidity, but I never float a table. Does that explain why I've been happy?

Probably not! It is best explained by saying that Ed got a bad table from a mold that was worn out. (This info about the mold is from what Nick told us in an old post)

I feel bad that Ed's table was mess, but Shopsmith then made a new mold and good tables followed. Ed was displeased (and still is) but mine purchased in 1996 on a Crafters Station is perfect and is now used on my 510 with nothing but good results.

davebodner wrote:I've heard you say this a few times over the years. And as a happy 510 owner I've tried to reconcile my experience with yours. I'm not the woodworker many here are, and maybe I just don't know any better.

Then it hit me: I never use floating tables. I use the main table and sometimes the extension table that mounts directly into the end of the Shopsmith. But never anything in between. I might connect the two tables for added rigidity, but I never float a table. Does that explain why I've been happy?

I'm sorry, Roy, really I am but I can not let this go by.

Dave: It may be why you are happy but you must not conclude that if you ever use a rip fence that is mounted on a floating table you will no longer be so happy.

You can accurately rip with the fence mounted on a floating table. I do it frequently, in fact did so today. The secret is simply to install the floating table rails with care; making certain that they align properly with adjacent main or extension tables before you use them (not every time just once).

I do mine with all of the tables (main, floating and extension) upside down on my workbench with the extension tubes installed. Loosen all of the bolts that mount the rails to the tables and then secure all of the thumb screws that position the tubes in the rails. What you now have is one large table all tied together on the extension tubes. Secure the nuts that attach the rails to the tables while making sure that the table remains in contact with your bench. When all tables have been so secured, turn the entire assembly over on your work bench and check for flatness with a straight edge. Use the straight edge to make certain that the rails align the full width of the table assembly.

This is time consuming but it does allow your 510 to be used with the rip fence anywhere along its length.

When positioning the rip fence, secure the front rail lock first. As you secure this lock, the fence should position itself so that it is perpendicular to the front rail (parallel to a miter track). To gain confirmation, do this extra step a few times. Measure from the fence (front and back) to the nearest miter track. Only after you are convinced that the rip fence is properly located should you lock the rear of the fence.

If this doesn't work for you, send me your old, worthless tables, rails and extension tubes and I will use them.

dusty wrote:I have highjacked this thread.

Furthermore, it was done with no real justification. I can not explain what you have observed. I understand your hypothesis but I can not replicate. We are at a dead end.

I apologize to Roy for this forced departure.

Dusty,

I think this is a good type of hijacking. It give me and hopefully others some ideas for things to watch for.

charlese wrote:Probably not! It is best explained by saying that Ed got a bad table from a mold that was worn out. (This info about the mold is from what Nick told us in an old post)

I feel bad that Ed's table was mess, but Shopsmith then made a new mold and good tables followed. Ed was displeased (and still is) but mine purchased in 1996 on a Crafters Station is perfect and is now used on my 510 with nothing but good results.

Actually the table has little or nothing to do with the problem.
Can you tell me you can't slip the connector tube into a fence rail without tightening the thumb screws and not be able to move the tube up and down?

If you can move the tube now look at where the thumb screws contact the tube. It is at the apex of the tube if the tube is exactly centered in the fence rail. If the tube is sitting on the bottom of the fence rail then the thumb screw contacts it above the apex of the tube. If you the tube is pushed up against the top of the fence rail then the thumb screw hit below the apex. Now measure the distance from the end of the tube from the floor in all three positions. The difference will be greater than a 1/4"

The problem comes when you are mounting a floating table. My sequence was install the connector tube in the main table usually with the tube sitting at the bottom of the rail, and I tighten the thumb screw.
Then I mount the floating table resting it on the tube. When I tighten the thumb screw the tube will at the top of the fence rail. If I hold the table up then the tube will be on the bottom of the fence rail. That difference to me is the problem.

The 520 completely eliminates that problem because the tube is tightened by thumb screws on the bottom of the fence rail. Thus the tube is always against the top of the fence rail on every table. If the fence rail is adjusted correctly the table height will be exactly the same every time.