Shopsmith Forums

one of the biggest mistakes was when they took most of the civics classes and Americanism v communism out of the school system, also the 17th amendment. the best definition for democracy is 2 fox's and a chicken voting on what is for dinner. same goes for most of the inner city's voting as they seem to always vote for whoever offers them more free cheese.

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Also the point is also that would turn this into a Democracy on the Federal level, and we are not, we are a Republic.
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No we are not a republic, nor are we a democracy...we are both. A fully democratic system would trample the rights of the minority, a fully republican system would ignore the rights of the people and would allow our elected officials to do as they please. The whole point of our country is that we are both, as far as the electoral college goes it should be talked about and then voted on by our elected officials, but even if our elected officials got rid of it or kept it, you still have two other branches of government that need to sign of on it. That is what makes things work or not work in our country. Just because something makes it past congress and the senate, doesn't mean the Presidents gonna sign off, even if he doesn't congress and senate can still over ride it, but even then if the courts don't agree and uphold it, still ain't gonna happen. All three branches have to agree before any thing really changes, THAT is what makes our country great. What I worry about is all three branches being control by one party, that is when things start going badly, then it becomes a democracy of elected officials, not both as it should be and how it was designed to be...of course every thing can be corrected in four years by the people, the question is can the country be ended in those four years...doubtful the government operates way to slowly for that to happen, it may get screwed up a little, but like a boat with counterweights it will roll back upright, always does....

Sorry for the double-post, if it is.

The Electoral College had two purposes:

1) to put a "thumb on the scale" in favor of the small states, and
2) to take the choice of President out of the hands of the people, since they couldn't be trusted not to elect a demagogue.

The first purpose works now better than ever, since the gap between the biggest states and smallest states is greater than ever. So the "thumb" is even heavier now.

The second purpose quickly failed. The parties took the power away from the Electors early on. Instead of their being able to use their judgement and vote for whom they wished, the Electors were forced to vote for their state's popular vote winner.

So, it seems to me we have the worst of both worlds. I might be in favor of the Electoral College as envisioned by the Framers, but not one we have now.

davebodner wrote:Sorry for the double-post, if it is.

The Electoral College had two purposes:

1) to put a "thumb on the scale" in favor of the small states, and
2) to take the choice of President out of the hands of the people, since they couldn't be trusted not to elect a demagogue.

The first purpose works now better than ever, since the gap between the biggest states and smallest states is greater than ever. So the "thumb" is even heavier now.

The second purpose quickly failed. The parties took the power away from the Electors early on. Instead of their being able to use their judgement and vote for whom they wished, the Electors were forced to vote for their state's popular vote winner.

So, it seems to me we have the worst of both worlds. I might be in favor of the Electoral College as envisioned by the Framers, but not one we have now.

Little old simple me is really confused. If the Electors are allowed to vote for their choice regardless of what the people vote for why should I vote? How many Electors are there,300 some? So less than 400 people in the country decide the election on their whim? Is that what you truly believe or did I miss something?

jsburger wrote:

davebodner wrote:Sorry for the double-post, if it is.

The Electoral College had two purposes:

1) to put a "thumb on the scale" in favor of the small states, and
2) to take the choice of President out of the hands of the people, since they couldn't be trusted not to elect a demagogue.

The first purpose works now better than ever, since the gap between the biggest states and smallest states is greater than ever. So the "thumb" is even heavier now.

The second purpose quickly failed. The parties took the power away from the Electors early on. Instead of their being able to use their judgement and vote for whom they wished, the Electors were forced to vote for their state's popular vote winner.

So, it seems to me we have the worst of both worlds. I might be in favor of the Electoral College as envisioned by the Framers, but not one we have now.

Little old simple me is really confused. If the Electors are allowed to vote for their choice regardless of what the people vote for why should I vote? How many Electors are there,300 some? So less than 400 people in the country decide the election on their whim? Is that what you truly believe or did I miss something?

There are 538 Electors with a majority (> 1/2) being 270 (or more). It is assumed that the Electors are faithful. That is to say they vote the way the people who sent them there (as electors) want them to vote.

The problem that I see is that you and I do now select the electors. They are chosen mostly by people of influence. Do you know any of the electors that represent you in this election. Do you know how many Electors represent your state. Once selected as Electors, it is anticipated they the Electors will vote in accordance with the wishes of those they represent.

Who are the Electors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... ican_Party

Interesting read: https://www.archives.gov/federal-regist ... ctors.html

Read all the embedded links!

Little old simple me is really confused. If the Electors are allowed to vote for their choice regardless of what the people vote for why should I vote? How many Electors are there,300 some? So less than 400 people in the country decide the election on their whim? Is that what you truly believe or did I miss something?

The Constitution says nothing about you or I voting. The states would choose the Electors as they saw fit. Maybe they'd put it to a vote, or maybe the legislature would pick.

Us not choosing wasn't a bug, it was a feature. To the extent we'd vote, we'd be voting for the folks who choose the President. You would ponder which local aristocrat you trusted to help decide who should be President. Your local aristocrat was assumed to be more trustworthy than riffraff like us. But, then the parties got involved and passed laws that tied the hands of the Electors.

Remember, you didn't vote for John Doe for President. You voted for the electors pledged to John Doe. Most states have laws against "faithless" Electors, but that wasn't how the Constitution envisioned it. And who knows if those laws are even enforceable?

Who are "We the People". You might think it means you and I but it does not. We the People are, as has just been said, not the constituency but rather the Electors.

But 'they' were the 'declarers'.

JPG wrote:

charlese wrote:Having just reviewed the Nation's popular vote, it looks like California popular vote determined Clinton should win by 3.4 million votes.

Thinking about the Nation's total popular vote - Clinton wins this by about 2.3 million votes.

So what would have been the results if there was no Electoral College???
Clinton would have been elected to President by the State of California.

Wow! Getting rid of the Electoral College would mean that California rules the Nation. Especially the area around San Francisco.

Our country has to think about this!

Fear not! The San Andreas fault(and 'tributaries') shall eventually rectify that!

Cannot not happen fast enough. Feel sorry for the members on here living there if it happens

It is all in here and not a hard read. I was not going to paste and copy and loose then general overview.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_ri ... ted_States