Shopsmith Forums

In this case the airman forgot the toque wrench that had just been revised as the tool to use over the previous socket wrench that had been used many times before. The socket did not fit on the wrench so they tried to hold the socket on the wrench and it slipped and off it went. Hit something part way down and bounced into the rocket, and that started the leak. From there a bunch of bad decisions and hours of wasted time later.........

BANG

I think you would be interested to see this as they have actual footage of a complex, something you would be very in sync with.

Ed

dusty wrote:
I was a member of the Titan team in Tucson when this happened. Yes, a very disturbing experience.

It is, BTW, a prime example of what can happen when someone does not follow "all of the rules". When working in the hole, ALL tools (no matter how small) are suppose to be on safety lanyards. The skin of the Titan was actually quit fragile. It did not take much to do damage.

As far as the missile being GONE....well, I certainly hope that we never find ourselves in a situation where we wish it was back.

Strategic Air Command (SAC), Where Peace is Our Professional. re: my avatar

SACCS - Strategic Air Command and Control Systems

I would think the skin is thin but you would think the actual fuel tank under the skin, being a pressurized vessel would have a thicker wall.
But I am no rocket scientist.
I guess not enough since this actually happened.

Update, if you live in the Chicago land area channel 11.2 has the show on again tonight at 7:00 listed under American Experience. I might try and record it if I have enough disk space left, only two hours long.

Ed

reible wrote:You may want to rethink what you have been told. There are still missing bombs that have never been recovered. The accidents are way more then the 32 that is often mentioned, more like more then 1000. In one case the only thing that kept one from going off was a single toggle switch, all the other arming sequences had happened.

Watch the video. There were things I knew about but a lot that I did not.

One thing that was mentioned a lot was human error........ well it best if we never got to the point of having human error dictate a situation.

With all this planning that other then the first two bombs dropped the rest of the people killed have been our own.

By all means find and watch this.

Ed

jsburger wrote:One never knows Steve.

I spent 16+ years of the 24 I spent in the Air Force working/loading nuclear weapons and weapons systems on aircraft. There have been 32 incidents of nuclear weapons being involved in an accident (called a Broken Arrow). None have resulted in a nuclear detonation. This attests to the safety features built into all of our nuclear weapons and their delivery systems.

For example, the B-52 had a system installed called SWESS (Special Weapons Emergency Separation System). I have loaded B-52's with that system. It was designed to safely release the weapons if the aircraft dropped below a certain altitude for any reason. That system is what happened with the B-52 crash over the Mediterranean off the coast off Spain in 1966. The weapons were all recovered.

There are many factors that are pre-programed and have to come together in a specific sequence to have a nuclear weapon detonate with a nuclear yield. None of those factors occur in an accident. That is exactly why the incident in Kansas did not result in a nuclear detonation. The worst that can happen is a conventional explosion that spreads radio active material.

Please don't get me wrong. Any incident with a nuclear weapon is extremely serious. However, the safety systems are adequate IMO.

Why do I want to watch a video from some movie producer that only wants sensation to increase sales?

Where is your proof of 1000 incidents? Do you know the difference between a Dull Sword, Bent Spear and Broken Arrow? I lived under those acronyms for years and they were very serious.

Please tell me what incident occurred where "all the arming sequences were in place except a toggle switch'. Yes in the old days there was a Nuke Consent switch in all aircraft since all aircraft back then could carry nukes. It had a red cover on it that was safety wired closed with copper wire and sealed with a lead seal that had a number on the seal. That number identified the load crew that loaded the aircraft and put the seal on. You could not just turn it on and drop a Nuke without a lot of other things happening first.

On the B-52 there were some ware around 12 switches that were safety wired and sealed by the load crew that uploaded the weapons on the aircraft. Those switches were all involved with dropping nuclear weapons and that is before the crew got the codes and authorization to actually deliver the weapons.

A true documentary tells the facts without any bias. A movie director wants sensation to increase the box office intake. How many true documentary s have you ever seen in the theater?

dusty wrote:

reible wrote:"A Chilling nightmare at a Titan II missile complex in Arkansas in September 1980."

A true story. If you can watch it do so. A young airman drops a 8 pound socket that starts the whole ball rolling so to speak. At least the warhead didn't go off, they found that laying in a ditch after the rocket explodes. No power so no exploding. Wonder how long our luck will last. At least the vintage of missile is gone and I hope we learned somethings.

One of my brothers was cross trained in that area while station in turkey hill in 1957.

Ed

I was a member of the Titan team in Tucson when this happened. Yes, a very disturbing experience.

It is, BTW, a prime example of what can happen when someone does not follow "all of the rules". When working in the hole, ALL tools (no matter how small) are suppose to be on safety lanyards. The skin of the Titan was actually quit fragile. It did not take much to do damage.

As far as the missile being GONE....well, I certainly hope that we never find ourselves in a situation where we wish it was back.

Strategic Air Command (SAC), Where Peace is Our Professional. re: my avatar

SACCS - Strategic Air Command and Control Systems

Right on Dusty. Working with nukes gave me the discipline that I have followed in my life. There is no room for error when working with nukes.
I worked nukes in SAC, TAC and ADC.

Well I'm only saying what the interviewed experts said and well of course what would they know???? Perhaps more then you?

Watch it then let us know where they were lying and you know better. If you don't watch it then how can you comment on what was said?

Watch it then come back with something that can make me believe you know more then then show presented other wise I have to go on what I saw and heard.

Ed



"Why do I want to watch a video from some movie producer that only wants sensation to increase sales?

Where is your proof of 1000 incidents? Do you know the difference between a Dull Sword, Bent Spear and Broken Arrow? I lived under those acronyms for years and they were very serious.

Please tell me what incident occurred where "all the arming sequences were in place except a toggle switch'. Yes in the old days there was a Nuke Consent switch in all aircraft since all aircraft back then could carry nukes. It had a red cover on it that was safety wired closed with copper wire and sealed with a lead seal that had a number on the seal. That number identified the load crew that loaded the aircraft and put the seal on. You could not just turn it on and drop a Nuke without a lot of other things happening first.

On the B-52 there were some ware around 12 switches that were safety wired and sealed by the load crew that uploaded the weapons on the aircraft. Those switches were all involved with dropping nuclear weapons and that is before the crew got the codes and authorization to actually deliver the weapons.

A true documentary tells the facts without any bias. A movie director wants sensation to increase the box office intake. How many true documentary s have you ever seen in the theater?"

Any one else observe that 'the rules' played a role in the lack of adequate timely reaction?

'New'(unforeseen) situations often require new actions.

There is no check list nor protocol for them.






Sometimes the appropriate level for the decision is at the bottom where the most accurate understanding resides.

That is why all critical knowledge needs to be understood at all levels.

I recall having a conversation(eons ago) with an employee at Oak Ridge regarding the drawer at his 'station' that contained the manual backup trigger for the explosive bolts that caused the immediate dropping of the control rods thus shutting down(hopefully) a reactor.

He greased the slides so that drawer was almost effortlessly opened. (the trigger still needed to be manually activated)

He was chastised for doing so.

Fortunately he never needed to activate.








Following the rules(orders) was the defense presented by several 'attendees' at Nuremburg.

reible wrote:Well I'm only saying what the interviewed experts said and well of course what would they know???? Perhaps more then you?

Watch it then let us know where they were lying and you know better. If you don't watch it then how can you comment on what was said?

Watch it then come back with something that can make me believe you know more then then show presented other wise I have to go on what I saw and heard.

Ed



"Why do I want to watch a video from some movie producer that only wants sensation to increase sales?

Where is your proof of 1000 incidents? Do you know the difference between a Dull Sword, Bent Spear and Broken Arrow? I lived under those acronyms for years and they were very serious.

Please tell me what incident occurred where "all the arming sequences were in place except a toggle switch'. Yes in the old days there was a Nuke Consent switch in all aircraft since all aircraft back then could carry nukes. It had a red cover on it that was safety wired closed with copper wire and sealed with a lead seal that had a number on the seal. That number identified the load crew that loaded the aircraft and put the seal on. You could not just turn it on and drop a Nuke without a lot of other things happening first.

On the B-52 there were some ware around 12 switches that were safety wired and sealed by the load crew that uploaded the weapons on the aircraft. Those switches were all involved with dropping nuclear weapons and that is before the crew got the codes and authorization to actually deliver the weapons.

A true documentary tells the facts without any bias. A movie director wants sensation to increase the box office intake. How many true documentary s have you ever seen in the theater?"

When I get a chance I might watch it. Other than that the movie producer never worked with nukes. It is a MOVIE to make money, he was not there. I spent over half of my AF career loading and maintaining aircraft nuclear weapons systems.

I stand by everything I have said. Unless you have been on the flight line with live nuclear weapons you don't have a clue what goes on. When I was at Ellsworth AFB, SD we had a double wing of B-52H's (30). When we had an exercise
we downloaded the hard alert aircraft (5) that had live nukes on them. Then we uploaded the entire fleet of 30 aircraft with live nukes. It had to be done in a specific time to be graded successful. Then the weapons were all down loaded and the pilots had to fly their simulated missions.

After that we had to regenerate the alert force and get the aircraft back on the Christmas tree.

dusty wrote:

reible wrote:"A Chilling nightmare at a Titan II missile complex in Arkansas in September 1980."

A true story. If you can watch it do so. A young airman drops a 8 pound socket that starts the whole ball rolling so to speak. At least the warhead didn't go off, they found that laying in a ditch after the rocket explodes. No power so no exploding. Wonder how long our luck will last. At least the vintage of missile is gone and I hope we learned somethings.

One of my brothers was cross trained in that area while station in turkey hill in 1957.

Ed

I was a member of the Titan team in Tucson when this happened. Yes, a very disturbing experience.

It is, BTW, a prime example of what can happen when someone does not follow "all of the rules". When working in the hole, ALL tools (no matter how small) are suppose to be on safety lanyards. The skin of the Titan was actually quit fragile. It did not take much to do damage.

As far as the missile being GONE....well, I certainly hope that we never find ourselves in a situation where we wish it was back.

Strategic Air Command (SAC), Where Peace is Our Professional. re: my avatar

SACCS - Strategic Air Command and Control Systems

WOW, I didn't know. Now I know why you want everything precise. . I wore the SAC patch on my uniform for many years.

jsburger wrote:

dusty wrote:

reible wrote:"A Chilling nightmare at a Titan II missile complex in Arkansas in September 1980."

A true story. If you can watch it do so. A young airman drops a 8 pound socket that starts the whole ball rolling so to speak. At least the warhead didn't go off, they found that laying in a ditch after the rocket explodes. No power so no exploding. Wonder how long our luck will last. At least the vintage of missile is gone and I hope we learned somethings.

One of my brothers was cross trained in that area while station in turkey hill in 1957.

Ed

I was a member of the Titan team in Tucson when this happened. Yes, a very disturbing experience.

It is, BTW, a prime example of what can happen when someone does not follow "all of the rules". When working in the hole, ALL tools (no matter how small) are suppose to be on safety lanyards. The skin of the Titan was actually quit fragile. It did not take much to do damage.

As far as the missile being GONE....well, I certainly hope that we never find ourselves in a situation where we wish it was back.

Strategic Air Command (SAC), Where Peace is Our Professional. re: my avatar

SACCS - Strategic Air Command and Control Systems

WOW, I didn't know. Now I know why you want everything precise. . I wore the SAC patch on my uniform for many years.

I never thought about it that way but maybe part of my training does show through. I spent, in addition to time in the hole, five years on the Maintenance Standardization Evaluation Team. Our function was to evaluate personnel performance all throughout the SAC system to make certain we all performed critical tasks IAW the approved procedures. MSET performed all throughout SAC, every SAC facility was subject to our evaluations on a no notice basis.

I learned to really dislike No Notice Inspections. When we showed up, all hell broke loose. We ruined a lot family events and probably some families by doing what we did.