Shopsmith Forums

If there is end-to-end movement of the quill and the aluminum knurled collar was secured properly I would like to know where the slack is. I always thought that was the primary fif not singular unction of the knurled collar.

The quill is trapped between split ring at one end and the aluminum collar at the other when the quill is fully retracted..

DLB wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:09 am . . . It is my experience that there are other causes and solutions for 'excessive' (how much is that?) end play besides the knurled collar. Bearing(s) are a likely contributor IMO. . . .
- David

I was able to determine that the end play is coming from the bearing itself, not the collar, or any movement of the quill. In fact, the quill is out of the headstock. My spindle slides fairly easily in the bearing race. No noticeable play, but it does slide, so I wanted the collar lock as tight as possible to eliminate the end play. The wedge method of tightening the collar convinced me it was tight and to look closer at alternate causes. It became evident it is the actual bearings inner race moving in and out slightly. The play is minimal. I just wanted to remove all I could. It is also just a backup headstock, so I am leaving it alone. I have a bigger issue with my minimum speed being over 800rpm, which I will post separately about.

Just wanted to say thanks to all the people who contribute here, it is a great forum.
Mike -

miken wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:05 pm

DLB wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:09 am . . . It is my experience that there are other causes and solutions for 'excessive' (how much is that?) end play besides the knurled collar. Bearing(s) are a likely contributor IMO. . . .
- David

I was able to determine that the end play is coming from the bearing itself, not the collar, or any movement of the quill. In fact, the quill is out of the headstock. My spindle slides fairly easily in the bearing race. No noticeable play, but it does slide, so I wanted the collar lock as tight as possible to eliminate the end play. The wedge method of tightening the collar convinced me it was tight and to look closer at alternate causes. It became evident it is the actual bearings inner race moving in and out slightly. The play is minimal. I just wanted to remove all I could. It is also just a backup headstock, so I am leaving it alone. I have a bigger issue with my minimum speed being over 800rpm, which I will post separately about.

Just wanted to say thanks to all the people who contribute here, it is a great forum.
Mike -

If you have a speed issue at the low end you must also have anomaly at the upper end as well. Have you done a high speed adjust?

edma194 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:29 am

DLB wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:09 am
In measuring end play the quill needs to be locked down tight. It works as kind of a two-stage thing where the lock first locks the pinion, which may still allow the quill itself to move a bit. Further tightening then clamps the quill itself to the headstock. When measuring or evaluating end play we need to be certain that the quill itself is not moving in the headstock so we are only looking at spindle movement inside the quill.

- David

I'm not understanding what kind of play you are looking at here, or what you mean about the bolded part above. Probably something obvious to everyone else but maybe you wouldn't mind explaining a little further. Are we talking about movement of the quill in and out of the headstock as would be a serious problem as a table saw and not so much for some other functions?

We may have some terminology issues going on here too. I shouldn't have used the term 'quill' because it probably implies 'quill assembly' when I was using it to mean 'quill housing.' For clarity I will try to use reference numbers from the service parts info on the SS web site. But note that they don't always agree even between the exploded view and the PL. I was trying to distinguish between the outer quill housing (59) and the inner spindle (62) so that when we talk about end play we are clearly talking about the spindle and excluding the quill housing.

By the bold part - When we tighten the Quill Lock, two different things are happening to lock the quill housing from moving in/out. Thing One is we lock the quill advance mechanism. This stops the quill advance/retract pinion gear (part of (43)) from turning, but the quill housing (59) can still move in and out a fraction because the rack/pinion do not mesh tightly. This can look a lot like end play, but if you look closely it is the quill assembly (no ref number) that is moving. Thing Two is the Quill Lock tightens the headstock casting itself around the quill housing (59) [similar to tightening the casting around the Idler Shaft's Eccentric Bushing (103)]. This takes more pressure on the quill lock, but locks the quill housing (59) firmly to the headstock. There is some discussion and pics in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=268943#p268943

- David

dusty wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:58 pm If you have a speed issue at the low end you must also have anomaly at the upper end as well. Have you done a high speed adjust?

No, I have been reading and trying to figure out exactly how that is done. I don't want to take this old thread off-topic (I have a tendency to wander). I am putting together a new topic.

Thanks Dusty,
Mike -

DLB wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:09 am ...Currently in my shop I have two different versions of the two-bearing quill. 'A' is a relatively new one from SS that came with my PowerPro upgrade kit, it exhibits a good bit of end play. 'B' is an earlier two-piece spindle version of the two-bearing quill that I recently rebuilt. It exhibits almost no end play. ..

Following up my previous post with measurements taken with a Shopsmith style dial indicator mounted to the table using a paper shim to eliminate the play of the mount in the miter slots: Quill 'A' measured 0.006" of end play while Quill 'B' measured 0.002". I'm applying little force, basically just wiggling the spindle in/out. These were both done with the quill fully retracted but I don't think that is a factor.

- David

dusty wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:14 am If there is end-to-end movement of the quill and the aluminum knurled collar was secured properly I would like to know where the slack is. I always thought that was the primary fif not singular unction of the knurled collar.

I'm wondering now if the idea of reducing end play via the knurled collar might be another SS myth? I'm only looking at two-bearing quills right now, but the knurled collar seats against the inner race of the outermost bearing and has the set screw for the spindle shaft. It does not contact anything else as far as I can tell. The other side of that inner race seats on the shaft seat. Basically you end up with a seat on each side of the inner race, locking the shaft to the race to prevent movement in either direction. I would say it's primary function is to prevent the user from pressing the spindle out of the inner race during normal operations like drilling, disc sanding, etc.; anything that exerts axial pressure on the spindle in the direction of the headstock.

I'm not suggesting that the procedure outlined in this thread would never help. I'm suggesting that in order for it to help the cause of the problem would need to be just so. A bearing not fully seated on the spindle, for example.

- David

Not sure re two bearing quills, but with the 'original' single bearing quill, the knurled collar is the only thing that prevents the quill shaft from slipping into the quill when pressure is applied to the end of the quill shaft.

Now IF the bearing outer race is also slipping, end play will be increased and there is nothing the knurled collar can to to fix that.

So I think I agree!

JPG wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:48 pm Not sure re two bearing quills, but with the 'original' single bearing quill, the knurled collar is the only thing that prevents the quill shaft from slipping into the quill when pressure is applied to the end of the quill shaft.

Now IF the bearing outer race is also slipping, end play will be increased and there is nothing the knurled collar can to to fix that.

So I think I agree!

I partially disassembled a spare quill that I think is of the same design as 'A,' which I think is current. It has a one piece spindle. Comparable end play to 'A. A couple of observations:
It has larger bearings than the two-piece spindles. I think that is both good and bad. (The barrel walls are thinner and the outer bearing is further in.)
The bearings, especially the inner, don't have much friction between the outer race and the quill barrel. It is very easy to remove the spindle once the snap ring is off. I don't recall the earlier two-piece spindles (my 'B') having this much freedom of movement.
The inner bearing, outer race, does not seat in the quill barrel. There is a seat, but the bearing is in the range of ~1/8" away from it. I customized a washer to the OD of the bearing to use as a shim, and it turned out it wasn't thick enough to fill the gap.
IIRC there is a shim or washer between the outer bearing outer race and the snap ring on two-bearing quills with two-piece spindles. This quill did not have anything. That seems to match the current PL on SS.com.

Conclusion - On this version of the quill axial movement of the spindle (end play) is limited only by the outer bearing. The bearing's outer race is captured by a seat on one side and a snap ring on the other. I'll try to get accurate measurements on those bits to see if this is contributing to observed end play.

- David